Dwarf Hairgrass Problems

[mike455555]

its like the mesh for moss? i dont have any pictures of it. it could do but i think any which strive for the light that gets though might have a better chance than being eaten?

*look in the right hand corner on the photo under the shrimp thats in detail of what i mean by it beaning cut *

 

[ian]

mmm i wonder whether the tops are dying off and the Amanos are eating the dead vegetation.

 

[mike455555]

they wouldn't die down so short tho?. it would just be like cutting the tops off?

i might leave it a week. i original thought they weren't getting enough light. a new tube went in on sat. there is afew greener looking shoots now.

i just hope its savable.. iv got some more in my 20L tank and a small propagating tank (also in the pond,which are growing. dont know if they will last the winter ;p )... there all thriving. so its not the water...

 

[JenCliBee]

Just throwing ferts in isn't always the answer. With the lighting you have you may again need some C02 addition. Then comes the ferts... If the light is low enough, you won't need anything as the plants will take the C02 from the water as the light is the driver. The higher the light, the more drive for the next thing in line, which is C02.

so, it goes Light, CO2, Nitrate, Phosphate, K, Micros (Fe, Mg etc etc), in that equation near the front needs to be good flow as well, this will ensure all the plants get what they need.

I will have to agree and disagree.

Firstly, when i mentioned fert regime i was referring to all aspects including carbon supplement, me again not making things clear lol... i categorise ferts as all rather than carbon separate but fundamentally it is a fert.

secondly, there isn't any harm adding ferts either way, which ever way what you thought i meant. Ferts as we all know dont cause algae so the addition of some kind is never a bad thing.

However.... i agree, the carbon supplement will probably need using as i mentioned, the lighting isn't low, if anything i would consider 2wpg to be med/high light even with using T8's. The addition of ferts in this case is inevitable... included carbon.


Mike, has you tank any signs if algae, either around or actually on the plants themselves?

What is the flow rate in the tank?, Ian is quite right that a good flow around the substrate area is a must for carpeting plants.

I think you have a combination of many things, higher light encouraging the plants to need more food/carbon, no food for them to uptake, low flow which isn't helping which is causing die off in which the fish are probably nibbling.


I know you said your plants were showing these symptoms before the extra bulb but that doesn't mean they were lacking before hand and then the addition of the extra light is speeding up the process.

Take not of Ian's process list, the driver as Ian quite rightly calls it will be at the heart of all tank trouble and then the following processes are contributors.

I will disagree with one aspect of what Ian has written though....

If the light is low enough, you won't need anything as the plants will take the C02 from the water

I still think in low light setups, the addition of ferts (not carbon based) is always beneficial, i dont agree that fish and waste will produce enough for a good healthy plant structure in a moderately planted tank unless you use something like a soil based substrate to combat the lack of manual dosing.

I would encourage anybody to add a small amount of ferts even if it was once a week/month to just replenish.

 

[mike455555]

thank you jake i think it might be flow. its very poor in that part of the tank... i'll angle my filter outlet down to the grass =] see if it picks up

 

[ian]

I still think in low light setups, the addition of ferts (not carbon based) is always beneficial, i dont agree that fish and waste will produce enough for a good healthy plant structure in a moderately planted tank unless you use something like a soil based substrate to combat the lack of manual dosing.

I would encourage anybody to add a small amount of ferts even if it was once a week/month to just replenish.

was talking about C02. As for ferts, some trace every now and again, i agree, but nothing else. I don't need to provide example of the many tanks that have done this in the past, as you are aware of most of them. Even so, i think it was Andy and llj that only dosed traces monthly (inert substrates, apart from andy with his 3 year old Tropica). In a low light tank, the fish/plants will produce enough n and p...

I also have to agree and disagree, whilst i know overdosing ferts isn't a problem (in a healthy tank). Its no good throwing loads of N and P in a tank thats over ridden with certain algaes as it WILL exacerbate the problems.

With Mikes tank, you mentioned adding ferts, if Mike was to dose just EI, there would be no point, as the building blocks wouldn't be there (CO2), it would just be a waste, this is why i mentioned this

 

[JenCliBee]

was talking about C02. As for ferts, some trace every now and again, i agree, but nothing else. I don't need to provide example of the many tanks that have done this in the past, as you are aware of most of them. Even so, i think it was Andy and llj that only dosed traces monthly (inert substrates, apart from andy with his 3 year old Tropica). In a low light tank, the fish/plants will produce enough n and p...

The only problem with the examples is, these are good examples. I could also show many examples in which tanks have failed... that's the beauty of this hobby... where something works for many... it doesn't always work for others .

However, from my own personal experiences with very lowtech tanks the outcome often was the opposite.... ive had success in not dosing ferts with simple/easy to keep run of the mill plants with minimal growth but healthy.... once you start adding more demanding plants.. the story starts to differ and often (in my case) led to deterioration. I categorise hairgrass as quite a hard plant to keep healthy and thriving in a low light setup without any decent addition of NPK and trace... maybe it was just me but ive seen on many other occasions the same sort of problems.

I also have to agree and disagree, whilst i know overdosing ferts isn't a problem (in a healthy tank). Its no good throwing loads of N and P in a tank thats over ridden with certain algaes as it WILL exacerbate the problems.

Yes but even if the rest was stable but the ferts aren't sufficient, this will also lead to unhealthy plants and the ability for algae to take hold.

This is the reason i asked if there was any algae and where it was forming.... algae on plant leaves can be a subsidery factor of a plant leaching due to it lacking... this could be ferts just as much as anything else... and the extra lighting to boot can also exacerbate things as you know.

With Mikes tank, you mentioned adding ferts, if Mike was to dose just EI, there would be no point, as the building blocks wouldn't be there (CO2), it would just be a waste, this is why i mentioned this

Yes, but are you sure that the plants aren't just getting enough ferts?.... the lack of algae IMO would rule out most common reasons why algae form. However the plant seem to be suffering.... ferts is a fuel... if it doesn't get this the plant will use reserves which can't then be replenished due to no addition of extra ferts which then entails the plant to degrade which then would lead to algae taking hold.

I may be talking out my bottom hole ..... but i think there could be varying reason here and starting with the addition of ferts could be a feasible way to go considering plants seem to be lacking?

 

[ian]

I agree, there is something lacking...i'm not sure they have been eaten, IME i have never had hairgrass eaten by anything i have kept. As Clive would say...most problems caused with plants are that they are lacking C02. Boost the C02, then then go from there.

 

[mike455555]

thanks ian and jake i will try to boost the CO2 (with my little simple defuser)

 

[JenCliBee]

I agree, there is something lacking...i'm not sure they have been eaten, IME i have never had hairgrass eaten by anything i have kept. As Clive would say...most problems caused with plants are that they are lacking C02. Boost the C02, then then go from there.

I agree, i dont think the plants would have been eaten from the offset but the degradation (is that even a word lol) and decay matter may have been eaten causing the nibble effect the OP is seeing.


I agree with what you've put in regards to what clive's says but the determining factor in this is usually algae... the plants may internally be degrading but to start with they may look completely healthy untill reserves have been depleted and then the plant in essence starts to cannibalise but the algae is usually the first sign of a problem, the OP hasn't mentioned anything on the algae front.... in this case the algae may be the next problem the OP was to encounter due to the plants decaying and producing ammonia.

I agree with you though, it could well be a number of things coinciding...lack of or fluctuating co2, lack of ferts and flow or possibly all 3.

I also agree that doing one thing may not work, however it just might.

The best advice i personally would give is look at all the potential problems.... look at adding carbon/co2 (this really now is a must with the upgraded lights), add ferts and also correct any potential flow problems.

I think i was abit vague with my original post when stating the lacking ferts, i still think this could be the potential problem or a least a big contributory factor but as Ian has suggested, checking all aspects would be the best way to go

 

[mike455555]

quick update.
started EI dosing with a simple push co2 canister and the the grass has picked up massively. =]