Dwarf Gouramis

[SouthernCross]

Hey all,

I'm in the process of establishing a community tank in a 36"x14"x18".
As for gouramis, I currently have one male flame dwarf gourami (I'm sure he's male because he has brilliant colours, females are dull, yes?). I was hoping to get a neon blue dwarf for the tank too (love the different colours in the male dwarfs) but after doing some reading I'm unsure as to how they would get along. Will the two males fight or will they be ok? I've seen some pics on the forum where two males seem to be existing in the same tank. The gourami I have occasionally 'rushes' at some of my platies but they are quick and swim away and he never pursues them, or at least I've never seen him 'get' any of them. Though other times he's happy letting them swim close to him? I figured he was just establishing himself as king of the tank...

Is it a case with gouramis of the more there is the more the aggression is spread out, and I won't have just one stronger one picking on the weaker one? For example like getting schools of tiger barbs? Would I be better off say getting 3 or 4? I'm not sure whether there's be enough space in the tank for 3 or 4 them to have their own territory?

It seems from what I've read that they like to chase/harass the females too? I didn't really plan on getting females, plus I don't think I have enough space to get each fella his own harem of multiple girlfriends so they're not harassed either!

Any advice on whether keeping a couple of males in my tank size is doable? If not tell me, cos I'd rather have one happy gourami than a pair/trio of miserable boys!

Thanks!

 

[sylvia]

Your tank is around 35 gallons according to my calculations. What other fish are in this tank (or are going to be in it)?

In theory, two males can co-exist but the more dominant (probably the one you have already as he'll be the more established one) will pick on the other. At the moment, the aggression you are seeing is limmited to mild territoriality. When there's a competing gourami in the tank, it won't be so mild. The larger and mroe heavily planted,t eh less aggressive encounters there will be.

Yes, adding several would spread out the aggression. 4 is the ideal number if you want several males and your tank would be large enough for them as long as no other territorial fish are included and the tank is planted quite heavily and has only a gentle current. This is important so that each male can establish a territory. If the current is strong, the available territories will be limmited to the areas where it doesn't reach. Simialrly, the more plants, the more divisions in the tank so the more available territory space.

Idealy though, getting a couple of females for your male is the better option - rather than adding another 3 males that is.

 

[SouthernCross]

Hi Sylvia! Thanks for your response.

At the moment all the tank has in it is my flame gourami, 3 platies and two bronze corys. I'm pretty new to keeping fish so I'm taking the stocking slowly - a few at a time. So at the moment I think I'm sitting on about 14" of fish (once they're grown).

I haven't really got my 'ultimate' tank completely planned out - but the main thing I'm looking for is bright colours and colour variation (hence my love for the male dwarfies) so as of now aside from gouramis I'm hoping to eventually get a single angel (I know they start tiny but seem to get pretty big - not sure how aggressive they are?) a few guppies (3 or so) and 6-10 of some kind of shoaling fish. Was thinking neons cos they're so pretty but then I learned angels eat them so ! Have never seen cardinals in any LFS here so I was thinking something like rummynose tetras. Anyone reading I'm open to suggestions for shoalers! Oh, was also thinking of getting an oto unless my current brown algae problem settles on its own. Being a newly established tank, I'm told this is common so I'll wait and see on that one. But I think I'm already starting to push over my stocking limits (35" of fish would be the rule then?) - and standing back and looking at my tank I'm really not sure if 4 gouramis would be too many for the tanksize in terms of having their own space but I'm not sure... I get the impression from you that 3 would be much better than 2 though?

As for territory my tank currently has 2 fairly big ornaments that have hidey holes in them (a urn-type bottle and a tall oddly shaped piece of fake rock) and only 3 plants, one of which is a big bunch that my gourami spends a bit of time in - the other two plants are only smallish. The gourami seems to roam the entire tank at the moment - he doesnt really seem to have 'his spot'. But I definitely planned on getting more plants anyway (also to help with the algae) so I can do that, I'll make sure they're big bushy ones. Problem is I can't plant my tank too heavily because it has a undergravel filter which I probably would have gone for something different when we got it knowing what I know now. Although I was also thinking about getting some additonal mechanical filtration cos I'm not sure if the UGF is gonna cut it when I'm fully stocked. I'm not sure about what my filtration will mean in terms of the currents? And what the best way to ideally manage the currents for the fish?

Appreciate any more advice you can offer! Am trying to do the fish-keeping thing right. Cheers

 

[confusion]

I have several tanks with 2 male dwarfs. Every now and then they swim in circles, giving each other the evil eye, but never seen anything more than that. For the most part, they seem oblivious to the other.

 

[sylvia]

Yep - 35" of fish is about right.

A trio (1 male, 2 females) of dwarf goouramies would be better than 4 males. But if you only want males, the 4 are ideal and should work fine in your tank if you get some more plants - especialy floating and tall-growing species. Here's an old thread where we discussed this: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...p;hl=polysperma But I do see why you might be worried about space and, yes, 3 would be far better than 2. Maybe consider sticking to just this one male dwarf and get yourself some different 'centerpiece' fish to add to the tank.

For example, an american-flag fish male would look beautiful. Though note that these don't work well with guppies because they can sometimes get moody You can easily replace guppies with endler's though - and many times these look even better anyway

Or you can take a risk and buy a single thick-lipped or banded gourami and see whether the dwarf can manage to coexist with it. Dwarfs tend to keep to themselves when it comes to different species and these particular two I'm suggesting are very peaceful most of the time.

Angels won't work in your tank. For one, single angels - IME at least - turn nasty. If you get a pair, they are even worse. They are cichlids and, like most other fish in this family, they can be extremely territorial. 2 of the same sex works out better but they can't be reliably sexed. They also won't coexist with guppies - can often kill them. And will also harass gouramies as they compete for the same upper to mid layers. Especialy with dwarfs (which are unfortunately prone to diseases brought on by stress), angels make bad tankmates.

I like rummynoses and neons (I prefer rummies personaly) but I think harlequin rasboras are better if you are after shoaling fish. Any small rasbora actually - spotted rasboras, also, for example. The school the tightest and, harlequins at least, are brightly colored. Actually, you can get quite a few color morphs though most LFSs don't stock more than one strain. Here's the fish index entry: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=86434 If you are definitely after tetras, my favourites are black phantoms - they are not the most colorful but the females have beautiful red adipose and ventral fins and both sexes have tranfixing irridescent blue patches on the operculum. Males have absolutely amazing fins and you can watch them displaying for hours (well, I can anyway ). they also have a habit of changing color - nothing drastic but they get lighter/darker according to mood and time of day. Another you might consider is the checker barb - a group of these can be beautiful. Simialrly, as a non-schooling species, a trio of cherry barbs could work if you are after color and activity. Threadfin rainbowfish would be another schooling species to consider.

edit: Wanted to add that I really strongly reccomend you buy yourself a power filter now - that your tank isn't too established - or you almost definitely will regret it later. UGFs are a complete pain to clean and you will have to do this eventualy. I use internal fluval power filters in most of my tanks (ie where I don't have sponge filters - which are for fry/breeding mainly) and these have an adjustable nozzel thingy for the current - so I can choose to have quite a strong current or stop it almost completely. You can also adjust the direction it flows in and the height of the filter. All these things have an effect on the current in the rest of the tank. Of course, you can go for any filter you like - but most have some sort of feature that gives you control over the strength of the flow anyway.

 

[SouthernCross]

Wow - what a great reply! Thank you so much!

Had a good read of that other thread - turns out the big bunchy plant I described having is actually hydrophila polysperma, so I'm on the right track with the plants - I agree with you, that thing just grows out of control! Gave it a good trim, cut and replant yesterday actually, and my flame is back in the top of it, now that he can get to the top! But will definitely be getting another half dozen or so plants. I feel a bit hopeless about plants - whenever I clean the tank I seem to mess them up a bit so the tougher the better! Being able to cut off the hydrophila polysperma is good with the UGF too since plants cant root as well with them. Are there many others which you can just cut off like this?

I'll definitely get another filter to run with my UGF sometime soon. With the UGF, its probably going to build sludge up underneath it after a year or so isnt it? I keep reading all these nasty things about them I'll face that when the time comes. So in term of current flow, do the fish like it quite strong or hardly at all? I find the many different types of filters and understanding how they work a bit confusing actually so I'll have to get to some research and check out what my LFS has. My tank has a wooden hood on the top so I'm not sure how an external would hang off it (except maybe at the back) and some internal ones seem to take up a lot of room in the tank and look kinda ugly so I'm not sure what I should get!

Thats a bummer about the angel When considering fish I'd mainly been consulting the fish index info and the following chart -
http/www.liveaquaria.com/general/fwcompatibility_chart.cfm
which apparently angels are fine with gouramis and guppies. But that barbs aren't. No wonder everyone gets into troubles with so much conflicting info out there! In terms of angels a few things I've read have said that if you get a tiny baby to raise they are usually are ok, especially with anything that was in thet tank already when you got the angel, and thereafter they generally only attack new fish if at all...I don't know whether I'd like to take the risk though. My LFS has a tankful of tiny black angels about the size of coins. But I will definitely think about it for awhile longer - if I definitely decide against the angel, I would imagine I could manage 4 gouramis instead of 3 with the extra space...

I'm not sure where you're from, but I'm in Australia and honestly I don't think we have as much variety of species in our fish shops as say the US or UK. I google imaged some of your suggestions and I know I've seen a few of them in my LFS, but definitely not all, like the american flag fish or threadfin rainbowfish, havent seen any of those in my LFS before. That rainbowfish sure is pretty though. But there's 3 or 4 decent fish shops within an hours drive of me so I'll travel around and see what they have. I also thought that when keeping dwarfs, it wasn't good to mix them with the normal gourami species? I don't know...

I have a question about honey gouramis too (you seem to be very gourami knowledgable!) - it seems a lot of people seem to be calling the flame dwarfs (reddy orange with blue on the dorsal like mine - like the fourth working picture down here) 'dwarf honey gouramis' - are they the same as the following or is this wrong?
I found this picture of a gorgeous gourami who looks to be a pale yellow and cream/white in a google image search - here which is referred to as a honey gourami - is this a separate species from the dwarf? Seems to be only 2 inches. And then I found this picture (eleventh working image down) of a ' dwarf honey gourami' on this forum which is yellow/orange with the black face and stomach stripe - is this another type again? I'm considering getting the yellow colour variety as one of my additional gouramis and I'd just like to be set straight with what is what....

Thanks again sylvia, you've been a huge help already... I know I have a lot of questions!

 

[sylvia]

Honestly, I don't know much about plants but all the hydrophila species that I've kept can be cut off like the polysperma. You may want to check the planted tanks section and ask there - people there are geniuses when it comes to plants

Yeah, you'll probably have to deal with the UGF in a year or so though sometimes they can last longer (or less ). Any filter you get, if you want to keep gouramies, will need to produce a relatively gentle current. If it's too strong, it'll stress them out and also reduce the volume of water which is 'calm' and therefore seen, from the gouramies' points of view, as good for establishing a territory. This will increase aggression as they'll have to compete more for space. Most of the external and itnernal filters are fine for a community tank. You are right though - it's worth doing some research into them all to see what suits you best and beginning with what your LFS has is a good idea. I think there may be pinned articles on this somewhere - I'll see if I can find them in a min.

Compatibility charts are terrible They are good for coming up with ideas and as a rough guide but I have yet to see one that is accurate. A lot of the trouble is that they don't consider tank size, sex ratios etc. I mean you could keep a single angel with a dwarf gourami in a large tank - you could keep practically any combination if the tank were large enough though Simialrly, if you were to keep a pair of angels and a trio of banded gouramies (for example), in a 55 gallon, you would probably be fine. You are also right, however, in that angels can sometimes be ok in a community if they grow up in it. I still wouldn't even cosndier them with guppies though and, idealy, not with dwarfs either because this gourami is a little mroe prone to stress-related disease than others. If you do end up going for an angel, let the rest of your fish settle in first and add the small angel last. I personaly don't think it's worth the risk.

I live in the UK but the selection of fish here isn't great either - at least not at my LFSs. Australia should have a fair number of rainbowfish around though - a large number are indiginous to Australia lol (though not threadfins unfortunately). I think a good idea would be to go to your LFS and note anything smallish that catches your eye and then research those (or ask about them). Most LFSs will also order in fish if you ask though (that's how I get by ).

Dwarfs don't do well with large aggressive gouramies like three-spots or snakeskins, kissers etc and they also don't do well with species that, while small, don't mind their own business - like croaking gouramies and, sometimes, honeys (and I'll explain about these in a moment ). The problem is really just that dwarfs are easily stressed. If it were not for this, they would be easy to keep with most other gouramies that are not overly aggressive as they are perfectly capeable of defending themselves.

The honey/dwarf confusion stems from the fact that very few people look at the scientific names of gouramies when identifying/labelling them. At LFSs, most dwarf gouramies just get given whatever name appeals most to the person in charge - often they are amde up. For example, you get 'red flame dwarfs', 'neon blue', 'powder blue', 'honey', 'flame' and various others. Most of these are not 'standard' names (like you'd get for bettas or guppies for example - like 'grass' or 'butterfly' - both of which are used to describe specific patterns in guppies and bettas respectively and are what I'd call 'standardized'). With dwarfs, there is no standard naming.

So to sort things out
There are two species usually confused:

The dwarf gourami - Colisa lalia. This is the species you own currently. They get to about 2", males are brightly colored, females are quite dull. They aren't aggressive towards other species but are very prone to disease and are easily stressed. The fourth pic down that you linked to is one of these.

Scroll down on that same page to where it says 'dwarf honey gourami' (the seventh working pic that you mentioned). Now that's not a dwarf
That's a honey gourami - Colisa chuna/sota (sota and chuna are the same - it just depends on how recent your sources are as to what name they give). These usually stay a tad smaller - about 1.5". Males are still more colorful than females but they never have vertical stripes and they develop that dark black band in the ventral area when mature and in good condition. These are quite a bit hardier than dwarfs.
The yellow one you linked to is a honey - not a dwarf. Honeys have lots of color morphs - red, yellow, gold etc - this is one of them. Again, there is no 'standard' for naming the color morphs so you need to be looking at the scientific name.

Unlike dwarfs, these fish don't always mind their own business when it comes to other gourami species (despite their diminuitive size meaning they can't cause much harm) - but to answer your next question - you could get a trio of these (ie 1 male, 2 females) and they'de be fine with your current male dwarf. The females will keep the honey from harassing the dwarf and the dwarf will ignore the honeys (for the most part) anyway. As they are smaller (and less 'chunky'), you also aren't adding that much extra bioload to your tank either.

The reason both species can have 'dwarf' put into their name is because, originaly, people would consider all gouramies in the genus Colisa to be 'dwarf' (in the sense of being small compared to other common genera like Trichogaster). This isn't really the case any more. For example, the largest fish in this genus - Colisa fasciata (banded gourami) - is also known as the 'giant' gourami (how confusing is that? lol) because it's the biggest of the Colisa species. Worse still, thick-lipped gouramies of one particular color morph are also confused with honeys, and labelled as such, even though they grow to be at least twice as large

I'm basically saying that you need to look for the scientific name and ignore the common ones or else learn to distinguish the two for yourself (which can be tricky with all the different color morphs)

edit: Here are some links to filter info:
http/www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tropical_fish/97434/1 - This outlines all the different types for both freshwater and saltwater (the ones you should be most itnerested about are on the second page BTW). Along the side happen to be advertisments that link to sellers of these filters. If you click on those you'll be flooded with information, pictures etc
http/animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/info.../freshwater.htm - This is from the same site as the compatibility chart I think. It has some good illustrations and explanations of different filtration types. What you really want is something that combines both 'mechanical' and 'biological' filtration - power filters do this in a convenient way (as opposed to the inconvenient way that UGFs do it ).
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=179820 - Check out the hardware section of this forum. This is a recent thread from there.
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=139488 - About filter media. I just use sponge eprsonaly.
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=4076 - Just interesting - probably not that helpfull unless you are considering a biowheel (I haven't seen any in the UK).

 

[SouthernCross]

Hey again!
So basically you're telling me there's no such thing as a yellow/gold variety of a true dwarf gourami? And the two yellow ones I linked to (the one with black and the one without) are colour variants of the same species - a honey gourami, which is separate to the dwarfs yes? I think I've got that straight now! So its not a good idea to stick a honey in on his own cos he'll make life miserable for the dwarfs even though he's only a little guy?

Thanks a ton for all those links! I'll have to get stuck into those and sort out what I'm going to do about a filter. I got some more plants today so I'm getting to work on making my tank more gourami-friendly . Like I said, I'm taking things slowly and I'm in no mad hurry, going to do the research first.

I'm sure you'll hear from me again in the future, I'll be talking about how things are going!

Thanks again for all your help!

 

[sylvia]

Yep - you've got it lol It can get very confusing with all the common names they are given Good luck with your tank!

 

[Rhiannon]

I have 2 males in my tank, they are best friends. Swim together all day no hassles what so ever.

I have heard on here a million times its not possible to put them together, but I have and have had no bad experience.

 

[SouthernCross]

Hey again sylvia! I'm back with a question already.

After having a readthrough through all the links you provided (which inevitably links led to more links...meaning I got loads of reading! ) I've decided to definitely get a power filter up and running to supplement the UGF. Through links stumbled across an interesting article here about UGF's and ways to clean/maintain them reducing the need for a complete tear down every year, so when the time comes I'll be giving that a try too.

Been browsing on an online aquarium supplies store I've used before (seem to have everything much cheaper than my LFS), I see the fluval internal ones you use and I can see what you mean about adjusting the flow and direction. However I'm not really a fan of getting an internal filter, basically cos I don't want to take up more space in the tank and kinda don't like the look of having a huge filter in there. Especially as I already have the two uplift tubes from the UGF in each back corner of the tank.

Sooo I've been looking at the external hang on filters. Looking at getting something like this which seem to have the overflow/waterfall kind of output. From the information there I can't tell if the flow is adjustable, not to mention I'm unsure about the currents it would produce and whether they'd be okay for my kind of fish? Especially after you explained to me about the gouramis current preferences. I figured I can also direct the flow from the top of the UGF tubes to a degree.

Just wondering if you had any thoughts? I'm probably also going to scope out the people in the hardware forum soon to get thoughts on the brand, and the angelfish people about my stocking queries. This forum is proving to be such a great resource! Gotten a bit off-gourami topic in here, but ah well!

Thanks again

 

[sylvia]

I've never used that filter before but it looks good to me. If you find that the current is a little too strong, you can quite easily weaken it by putting a bit of stocking around it or directing the flow to the side or placing an ornament in the current's path - so it's not a particularly serious issue. Definitely go ask in the hardware section for opinions though - some brands have a good reputation while others have a reputation for dieing on you