Dwarf Gourami - Sore

[SouthernCross]

Hi

I'm posting here because the people over in the emergency forum haven't been able to help me with this specific gourami problem. I'm kinda hoping sylvia spots this here - being the gourami expert!

I've described the symptoms and posted some pictures in this thread HERE. Please have a look.
Ultimately I want to know what meds I need to get and what I need to do to treat my fish. Thoughts about the platies would be appreciated too, but I'm mostly concerned about this sore on the gourami.

Many thanks.

 

[sylvia]

About your platies first - I doubt the poo is anything to worry about. The color isn't really indicative of constipation/parasites etc. If it's very stringy, it can be a symptom of parasites and a lack of appetite and bloating can mean constipation but I don't think yours have either of these problems. Having said that, flicking is a sign of irritation and I'm thinking ich. Ich is a parasite that goes through several life stages and some of these are not visible. They can also infect the gills which you cannot see. Interestingly, ich doesn't usually affect cories - so that would explain why they aren't showing any symptoms.

As for the gourami - that's an ulcer. This is very common in dwarfs and probably can't be cured. They can be caused both by viral and bacterial infections. The viral cannot be treated so you'll just have to make sure water quality is good and hope the fish can fight it off. The bacterial version is far less likely (I say 'likely' because no one really knows how common the virus known to cause this is in different parts of the world but, judging by how difficult ulcers tend to be to treat, I'd guess most are viral) to be the problem but it could be treated with an anti-bacterial or antibiotic med added to the water. This would only be worth a try if you can isolate the dwarf into a hospital tank that's been cycled beforehand. Treating the whole tank would probably cause more harm than good - especialy considering the dwarf is very unlikely to recover anyway.

If I was in your position, I'd isolate the dwarf and treat with an antibiotic for as long as the particular med. reccomended. As long as the fish is still eating, it has some chance of recovering so it's worth trying anything you can. If it were to lose its appetite and become increasingly lethargic, I'd euthanise with clove oil.

As for the platies left in the main tank - raise the temperature gradualy (watch the cories don't react negatively to this), do lots of extra water changes but only medicate for ich if you continue to see flicking - and make sure you continue the treatment until at least a couple of weeks after all the symptoms subside.

All I can say now, I suppose, is good luck!

 

[SouthernCross]

Hey sylvia - knew I could count on you! Thanks a ton.

An ulcer? Likely to be incurable? This makes me so sad, I'm so attached to this guy, he's my favourite! He's had it for awhile now (bit longer than a week) at it seems to be neither getting better nor worse. His behaviour seems fine, still loves eating (got very into those peas I put in from the other recommendations). Unfortunately I have no hospital tank - therefore no isolation...what do you think his chances are of surviving and it healing? Now the tank finally cycled properly and has no nitrites anymore I'm hoping this will help...I'll keep up with weekly waterchanges, might do a few extra.
When you say likelihood of recovering do you mean he'll just always have this sore or he is inevitably going to die soon? Also, is this type of thing contagious? Like I really shouldn't get any additions until this gets resolved one way or the other?

In terms of the platies - at least one of them still seems to be flicking...I looked closely and I really cannot see anything visible on him - does that mean internal parasite? *edit* just reread your post - I see ou've said some stages of ich are invisible...

Why would the meds cause more harm than good? I'm actually don't have any meds yet and I'm about to put an order in and I don't know what would be best there's so many! But I've kinda narrowed it down to these...don't know whether I can afford all of them to have on hand right now - so if you could help at all weith pointing me in the right direction for the probs I seem to have now I'd appreciate it...

Waterlife
Sterazin - Parasite med - said was good for flicking when you can't see any other visible sign as could be gill/body parasite?
Protozin - Fungal (including whitespot) - thats if my fish do have ich but I thought they get visible white slime then? *edit* is this the later stage?
Myxazin - For finrot, ulcers, sores, wounds etc - bacterial infections (would this be best for gourami?)

Aquarium Pharmaceuticals
Melafix - I know everyone raves about this - seems to me it only repairs fins and the like, it doesn't do much for infections? More a preventative? Might get some for when I (eventually) add new fish...
Pimafix - fungal infections and internal/external bacteria infections.

I've taken this information just from what the product description said on the website....
Which would you recommend? Can I only use one medication at a time? I'm not really sure if one will help all the probs I'm having or if I'll need multiple...
I'm also not sure whether you're telling me to not add anything and take my chances. I really don't have a very good understanding about the effects (good and abd) of the various meds...

Sorry I rambled so much..
Thanks for any more help you can offer

P.S. I asked on the other thread about what other foods I should offer aside from flake and the occasional veg - are the freeze dried bloodworms/brineshrimp good? I was going to get some sinking wafers too (mostly for the catfish...). Is there much difference between flake/pellet/tablet? Thanks.

 

[sylvia]

Hello again

When I mentioned his chances of recovery being slim I was, unfortunately, referring to his chances of survival because of how difficult it is to treat this problem. Having said that, the fish's own immune system can fight it. So if he's otherwise doing well, he could potentialy make a full recovery and the ulcer would then go too. I've never seen this happen though so I doubt his chances...

Now that was all assuming it's viral like I expect it is. If it's bacterial (and Myxazin is best for this like you suggested), treatment could help but his chances are still not great. My two main concerns with not quarantining is, firstly, that anti-bacterial meds can mess up your biological filtration - causing ammonia and nitrite spikes. In a hospital tank, this can easily be controlled by big water changes. In a community, not only is the sick fish affected but all the rest too. Considering your platies don't seem to be in perfect health themselves, this sort of deterioration in water quality could prove deadly for them. This is what I was referring to when I said it could cause more harm than good to treat in the tank. The other problem is that the treatment for ich is considerably different to what you need for a bacterial infection. The meds, for one, are different and mostly cannot be mixed. The other is the temperature issue - high temps. accelerate the ich lifecycle, speeding up treatment and reducing the stress on the infected fish - but high temps. also accelerate the growth of bacteria - so this is bad for treating bacterial infections.

Since it looks like you're going to have to treat within the main tank, begin just by treating for the ich but without making any temperature increases. I'd personaly use Sterazin for this. BTW - yes - the visible stage of the ich lifecycle appears as white spots on the body (hence the other name 'whitespot disease') and fins of the fish. It looks like a fine sprinkling of salt. But the vast majority of the ich lifecycle is not visible with the naked eye.
It is crucial that keep up with water changes. If you see the ulcer on your gourami becoming bigger or his behaviour changing for the worse, then you should consider treating for that but monitor your water parameters very closely to prevent major ammonia spikes. Hopefully you'll never get to this stage or the platies will have recovered by then anyway.

Just to add - for hospital tanks, I use plastic food storage boxes. These are very cheap and come in all sizes. Then all you need is a small sponge filter and heater and you can fishless cycle it and have a simple, affordable, quarantine and hospital tank... that can also be used for breeding at other times

Concerning Melafix and Pimafix - don't bother I've never used Pimafix myself, actually, but I do know that Melafix does little more than make your tank smell nice. The active ingredients in Melafix are a miniscule percentage of the product and I read up on them a while ago and found the claims shaky at best. It probably confers some kind of preventative protection from bacterial infections but, IMO, is best not used except perhaps when quarantining. One side effect of Melafix is that it creates a film on the water's surface and overall reduces the amount of dissolved oxygen that can be held in the water. This obviously isn't good for the fish and can cause stress - though not so much for gouramies as they breath air. This is actually the case with most meds. but melafix is especially good at doing this and, considering what I think is its worthlessness, the costs are not worth it for the questionable benefits.
0
Freeze-dried foods should be avoided. I often quote whoever it was who first said that they have the nutritional value of cardboard It's not an overstatement. Also, they are notorious for causing constipation because of how dry they are and can also indirectly lead to swim bladder problems in some fish.

Any pellets/tablets are great for any fish that'll take them. That they sink is advantageous as it means the fish are less likely to swallow air or very dry food - as can sometimes be the case with flake. Having said that, most pellets/tablets are made for catfish and the like that are not particularly omnivorous so they have a high protein content. This is good for gouramies but they need a vegetable/algae/spirulina supplement to balance things out. IMO, unless you are conditioning for breeding, the diet of your gourami should consist of as many brands of flake as possible (replaced regularly as their nutritional value decreases over time so only get small containers) rotated with catfish pellets, algae waffers, spirulina flake and fresh veggies like blanched zuchinni and peas. Live and frozen foods such as bloodworm/blackworm can be fed often in place of the pellets, brine shrimp even in place of flake and daphnia is especialy good in that it plays a similar role in 'clearing out' the digestive system as peas. Generaly speaking, tubifex is best avoided - there have been concerns over them carrying pathogens that could harm fish so I steer clear of them to be on the safe side

 

[SouthernCross]

Thanks so much sylvia - honestly out of this whole board whenever I've asked questions you have given me the best, most comprehensive and detailed responses - far superior to any other. So I thank you again!

I think I'll invest in a bottle of each of the Waterlife meds - it says the Protozin is whitespot specific (and only a 6 day treatment as opposed to 10 for Sterazin...) - can I ask why you would prefer the Sterazin? In any case I'll have both on hand. I'll treat for the platies first - and then if my gourami is still kicking on (here's hoping!) and his ulcer is no better I'll try with the Myxazin. The Myxazin claims it is safe for filter bacteria - but I guess we'll just see how that turns out. The ulcer itself is not contagious is it?
I don't use salt at all because I have cories - though I read treating with it once in awhile is okay - is it worth it for any effect it would have?

I'll consider picking up one of those cheap tanks they sell at Kmart or something for a quarantine tank. It won't do me much good this time around I think, by the time I got it cycled. This might seem like a dumb question, but how to you keep it cycled when it's empty? Do u just put some flakes in?

I'll order a couple of different varieties of food (I'll def skip the freeze dried though) as well.

Once again, thank you, you've been a huge help.

 

[sylvia]

Thankyou lol

I'd prefer that Sterazin because it's more general so it has a better chance of treating what your platies have - just in case it's not ich (probably is though - it's rather common in livebearers and flicking is almost always due to ich or velvet if what is wrong isn't obvious).

I'd skip the salt with the cories even though small dosages won't harm them. It would be of great benefit to the platies but it's not worth the risk considering ich is generaly quite easy to treat - even if all you do is extra-frequent water changes (but that's my experience with less aggressive, I'd assume, strains - some people claim they experience deaths overnight). I can't emphasize the importance of water changes enough though.

Yes - you can keep the tank cycled using flake (every other day or every 2-3 days should be enough) or else pure ammonia (the less messy option) of the type used for cleaning. Make sure it has no additives or anything that could harm your fish if you do use ammonia. Also, remember to do a big water change before putting any fish in as the tank will have accumulated high nitrates.

Unfortunately, whatever is responsible for your gourami's ulcer could get passed on to the other fish. If it's viral, it's probably a little less likely to be transferred than if it is bacterial but both are potentialy contagious. Still, neither platies or cories are particularly prone to ulcers so as long as you keep an eye on them all so as to catch anything early and do very frequent water changes, I wouldn't expect them to contract it. Obviously, this is another good reason for wanting a quarantine tank around (if not right now, at least in future if you ever again require it).

Good luck with your fish - I really hope they recover soon

 

[SouthernCross]

It's me again...*sigh*

All my meds and stuff arrived today. I was thinking aout not worrying about the platies because I hadn't seen any of them flick for a couple of days (I'd spent hours watching!) but then one did it right in front of me just then as if to say "LOOK! Hurry up and do something about my itchiness!" LOL. There's still no white spots on them after all this time so I'm guessing its not ich then? Although I don't know how long it takes to appear...

I got very excited for awhile, as it looked like all the redness had disappeared out of my gourami's ulcer - it was still a little bump though. But I think he's become less active, he's tending to hide at the back in his spot in a plant. I don't know if I'm paranoid, and I can't really remember how fast it was before, but his mouth seems to be going really fast - 2-3 times a second. My UGF creates a lot of surface movement so I don't think the tank can be low in oxygen - not to mention I didn't think he could be struggling to breath since he's a labyrinth fish??? He also is having really long stringy clearish poop. I'm so desperate to save him. Could this mean something different? At this point I think I'll go ahead with the Sterazin - if my gourami has a parasite too I guess it might help him. Is it true some of the meds take a lot of the oxygen out of the water? Does Sterazin stain badly, is it easy to clean? Also I'm about to install an extra HOB filter (minus carbon insert) - is this a good idea while I treat? Are you supposed to do water changes while you're treating? If I did I'd do it before adding the day's dose...

Thanks...
*Edit 12 hours later* Even when I fed tonight, he refused to come out. He's usually a huge pig, not to mention never shy. Maybe the ulcer looks a little red again tonight. I'm so worried! I've gone ahead and got the hang on running, but haven't put the treatment in yet...

 

[sylvia]

The dwarf gourami probably won't make it unfortunately. Rapid breathing, lack of appetite etc are all bad signs. If the platies are not acting too distressed, consider treating the gourami first - just in case he stands some chance of recovery,

Have you tested your water lately BTW? How are ammonia/nitrite levels? Do a big water change as soon as possible. You are right, however, that oxygen levels should be fine - besides which you didn't mention your platies reacting in the same way so lack of oxygen is not to blame (ammonia/nitrite still could be because gouramies are generaly mroe sensitive to this).

You shouldn't stop doing water changes while treating but make sure to follow the instructions on the med and replace as much as necessary after the water change. Introducing another filter is fine as long as (like you said), you don't include any carbon and as long as you don't remove the old, established, UGF.

As for the platies, they could still have ich but it could also just be some other gill parasite. Either way, the meds should deal with it. I don't know whether sterazin stains - I have used it (it's been a few years now - I now live in the UK and have never seen it around) but I can't remember

Meds, BTW, do reduce the amount of oxygen that can dissolve in water - but this shouldn't be an issue provided you follow the dosage instructions and your filter is already producing reasonable surface aggitation.

Ich info: http/www.fishforever.co.uk/ich.html
Note that the article mentions how long it can take to go from one life stage to the next - you'll find various acounts of this scattered over the internet/in books etc. The reason is that there are several different 'strains' of ich - some more aggressive than others/more resistant to medication. These can make their presence known more rapidly.
Another possible cause of the flicking might be gill flukes but this is far rarer compared to ich.

 

[SouthernCross]

I think I will treat with the Myxazin for the gourami first then. The platies do look better than they did before. The Myxazin is only a 5 day treatment, so I'll get that in, have the 48 hour break (hopefully things are going well) then I'll treat with the Sterazin (10 or so days I think). If they obviously develop ich spots in the meantime though I'll use the ich one, Protozin instead. That site seems to think most people don't notice/start treating til its visible anyway. Obviously some of us are more paranoid/observant (take your pick!) of behaviour changes than others Will wait and see.

The last 3 or so times I've tested my ammonia/nitrite have both been on 0 and my nitrate has been sitting on around 10. PH is around 7.2-7.4, which I know is a bit higher than the 7 ideal but everyone tells me that messing with that to try and bring it down causes more harm than good, that they'd prefer consistency. Did about 30% water change yesterday. I'd hoped that would perk him up a bit today but doesn't look like much of a change.

With water changes while treating - if I change right before the dose for that day, I'd still only have to dose with the normal daily dose right? I wouldn't have to calculate what I took out and add that on top of the new dose? I figured that would be too much, but thought I'd better clarify just in case. It just seemed to make sense to me if I do it that way I don't have to worry about calculating things.

You seem to have a load of experience, so I'll just ask - with my gourami the way he is at the moment, if he's definitely going to die, about how long would it take? I mean if he is still around after a certain amount of time...can I be reassured he would still have good chances? It just seems with some illnesses there's points of no return and certain timeframes...

I'll go off and check my water again, and start this Myxazin if its all good.

Thanks again sylvia. I'll probably be updating this thread with how it all goes... *thinks positive thoughts*

 

[sylvia]

That sounds like a good plan And, yes, you can do the water change like you say without extra calculations

I'm sorry but I don't know what your gourami's chances are or how long it might take for him to be overcome by disease. It varies from fish to fish and, honestly, I have not had to deal with many ulcers/bacterial infections since I started breeding my own fish (though I don't own any dwarf gouramies at the moment anyway). The few times I have had this sort of problem - or when I've seen others dealing with it - the fish could survive a very long time (months) with the ulcer. However, if it started to get bigger/spread or new ones appeared, it tended to be a matter of maybe 2-3 days (at most) before death. The one way you can almost always tell a dwarf gourami is not going to make it is that it'll stop eating. After that, its chances are practically non-existent. IMO, at this point it is more humane to euthanise (using clove oil) as their condition rapidly deteriorates and they often die overnight.

Good luck! And do keep me updated - I really hope he recovers - or at least doesn't get worse.

 

[SouthernCross]

Well, you were right about the rapid deterioration after they stop eating. He was dead when I got up this morning.
I feel devastated! It's so disappointing when you start out, do your best to do everything right, and this still happens....had him only for a bit longer than a month...until he got sick he'd been such a character, and so pretty! I'll leave him as my avatar. Guess I was dreaming when I thought I'd be the beginner who wouldn't kill a fish in my first 6 months....

I'd been watching him last night - he was hovering just below the surface, using his pectoral(?) fins to keep him afloat, then making little bursts to reach for the surface. It seemed he had to make a lot of effort to do that. I tried floating a small flake right in front of him but no use. He probably hadn't eaten since the day before yesterday. I went to bed hoping the Myxazin would have worked a miracle overnight . Well I guess I'll stop that now, give it a break for two days (do you always have to run some carbon or can you just leave it, does it dissolve away on its own?), watch the platies, if they're still flicking/clamping (they look pretty good today though actually) I'll start on the Sterazin. It says to not use Protozin within 48 hours of Myxazin, but I'll leave it two days anyway, give me a chance to watch the platies.

The tank looks very empty without him now. If I don't see the need to start the Sterazin, I'll probably get them some new friends later next week. Or after the Sterazin if I run it. I had been hoping to increase my stocking soonish, but I wasn't about to do it with sick fish in the tank. I'm convinced now I definitely need to get a quarantine tank up and running. What would be the minimum size for one? 10 gallon?

Once again, thank you SO MUCH for all your help with this. I'd have been completely lost without your advice.

 

[confusion]

I'm sorry for your loss. One thing I have found is that my gouramis are impacted first and worst by anything that goes wrong in the tank. I think they are amazingly beautiful fish with really cool mannerisms that add a lot of character to an aquarium and hope you will consider getting another one.

 

[sylvia]

I'm so sorry he didn't make it - but it had nothing to do with you. Dwarf gouramies are fragile fish and almost always carry disease. It was probably something he'd been carrying for a while and almost certainly something you couldn't treat anyway.

BTW, no, you don't need to use carbon - most meds decompose naturally and any remnants are removed during water changes. However, if you do end up treating with another med, it is a good idea to use carbon (and a water change) to get rid of the previosu treatment before starting the next.

A 10 gallon, yes, is a good size for a quarantine tank Keep in mind that it'll need to be fishlessly cycled and the cycle maintained in the absence of fish as well.

If you decide to replace your dwarf, try a different species. There are many that would work, look similar and are equally interesting but are less likely to suddenly develop diseases. Banded gouramies (Colisa fasciata - to 4"), thick-lipped (Colisa labiosa - 3.5") and honeys (Colisa chuna/sota - 1.5") would be a few to consider.