Dosing In Low Tech

[markandhisfish]

im looking into various dosing methods and so far in terms of cost effectiveness im liking the dry chemicals used in the pmdd method on james' planted tank site

the trace elements mix for example seems very economical . 100g of dry powder trace elemnts £5.09 mix 10g with 250ml water dose 1ml per 40L daily . so by my calculations at those rate that 250ml of trace elements will last 11 weeks . and the 100g tube lets me mix 4 lots of this , so not far shy of a year . altho id probably mix it up in smaller amounts ,

now its the macro elements mix that im not sure about this mixture assumes youre using co2 and includes potasium phosphate . would i be right in thinkingg that in a non co2 tank it would be bad to add phosphates due to potential algae problems?

should i make the macro nutrients sollution but omitting the potassium phosphates? include the phosphates? or would just the micro elements mixture suffice?

reipe for macro elements mix is

potassium sulphate
potassium phosphate
potassium nitrate
magnesium sulphate .

 

[markandhisfish]

or theres this recipe . hmmmmm lots to learn methinks

1 Teaspoon Potassium Nitrate
2 Teaspoons Potassium Sulphate
2.5 Tablespoons Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom salts)
1 Tablespoon Chelated Trace Element Mix (7% Fe, 1.3% B, 2% Mn, 0.06% Mo, 0.4% Zn, 0.1% Cu, EDTA, DTPA)
300 ml distilled H2O

 

[SuperColey1]

I've said it loads of times before but no-one listens. lol

If you are going non CO2 then research non CO2 methods. You shouldn't be looking at ferts yet and definately no trace/micro. You may not need to add anything!!!

non CO2 tanks typically have zero water changes so something to look at only with a mature tank and some experience/confidence behind you.

They will utilise the nutrient from organic waste which will be produced by the fish waste, decomposing matter and left over fish food.

If anything all that needs to be added are small amounts of macros.

Trace mena sexactly that. only a trace is needed and that will be supplied by the fish food which then means any left overs plus any that comes from the fish waste provides........traces.

I would suggest you read up on this. Page 1/2 is all you need but the whole thread is worth reading.

http/www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/433-Non-CO2-methods

Of course as with any method it does assume that you have the setup perfected. i.e. flow, substrate, planting etc.

Needs research just as all the other methods.

AC

 

[markandhisfish]

this is why im asking all these questions before i even ordered the tank. i thought it was a case of plants need feeding regardless of co2 etc. what made me so obsessed with ferts is reading on that site that the waste from the fish alone wasnt enought to sustain the plants. ( i guess that meant in a co2 setup as well) . thanks for the advie and the link il be sure to have a read through it , looks like youve already saved me money AND problems.

as i said ive got a hell of a lot to learn , ive never tried a planted tank properly before , and as such havent read much about this side of aquatis until tonight.

well 1 thing for sure it wont be the last dumb question i ask along the road .

this is probably the 2nd dumb question of this thread, butt no waterhanges? what about the fish?

 

[SuperColey1]

Until a month or 2 I went 14 months with no water changes!!! No problems.

Fish want clean oxygenated water. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to come from water changes.

Plants are natural filters. add to that the filter in your tank and you have the above (if you get the plants bit right.)

A FULYY planted tank is a totally different system to a non planted tank.

So where in a non planted tank you would perform water changes they aren't necessarily needed in a planted tank.

i thought it was a case of plants need feeding regardless of co2 etc.

This is true.

It is where the food comes from and how much is needed though.

In a non CO2 tank teh growth rates are much slower and therefore the fishwate and other natural occurrences can provide all or most of the 'food'. Maybe a little top up of N or P (No P does not cause algae) will be needed.

In a CO2 enriched environment growth is much faster (10-20x) and therefore you have to add ferts on top of any natural occurring food.

Yep much reading but its good you are reading. Some jump in, find one article and then spend the next year telling everyone else they are wrong because they say something different to the one article. lol

AC

 

[markandhisfish]

proving harder to find a suitable tank within budget than id hoped , but thats not really a problem , it just means ive got more time for reading .

 

[SuperColey1]

Just spend loads of time on ebay. People don't want to bid on 'collect only' items. Find some close to you and monitor them. Loads go unsold or for small money.

AC

 

[markandhisfish]

ive had a real pain in the backside on ebay today . i ordered what clearly said juwel rekord 120 . picture was of the tank and cabinet , all the blurb was there about light heater yada yada. so i ordered 1 and then sent the message saying ive ordered a rekord 120 heres my phone number for the courier as they sometimes seem to have trouble finding my place. got a message a couple of hours later saying " you do realise its just the cabinet dont you" needless to say i replied asking for a refund . whats annoying tho is that theres an ideal little tank literally about 5 miles from me i want to bid on but its only got 2 days left and my money is floating around in cyberspace somewhere.

oh well it would seem the planted tank is a patient mans game in more ways than 1

still , no point getting frustrated about these things i shall just treat it as extra research time , which an only be a good thing as it means more chance of success

 

[SuperColey1]

ebay sellers can be a pain in the A... Especially the so called pro retailers. Spelling and grammar is really bad. They copy/paste from one listing to another and forget to alter deails. Then they reply to you as if you're the fool. lol

i shall just treat it as extra research time , which an only be a good thing as it means more chance of success

Indeed. I started researching last month for a scape I'm going to start in April. lol. And I'm no beginner. Doesn't hurt to research things and plan them well. Its executing the plan that is hard. lol

AC

 

[markandhisfish]

well the guy has refunded me , but my paypal balance is still not showing it for some reason. still at least i know im getting my money back so i can start bidding on the other tank im watching.

 

[Rynofasho]

FYI if you are looking to create a macronutrient fert solution using dry chemicals, it can be done very easily. I spent $22 on a pound of KNO3, K2SO4, and KH2PO4, half of which was shipping costs, and mixed a solution based on some research I had done on the PPS-Pro method. Everything I had planted in my tank after a gravel to sand switch was dying FAST because I didn't have any macros, and after dosing for 2 days, I noticed a vast improvement. I'm only 6 days in now and my Anubias which were all dying of chlorosis started sprouting new leaves, and my Crypts, one of which literally melted away to NOTHING are all sprouting new growth too. It was really easy to do and doing the math, I found that this supply should last me about 1.5 years at my current dosing level and costs 44x less than comparable Seachem products over a 1 year period.

 

[SuperColey1]

I wouldn't recommend PPS-Pro to a beginner adn definitely not to anyone who is using hobby test kits.

Its a pretty lean dosing method and relies on testing for current levels. That can spell disaster if using hobby test kits as they are notoriously inaccurate especially for phosphate and iron tests.

It also uses CO2 @15ppm which is fine in a prefectly balanced setup with the flow and circulation absoutely on the ball and whilst many may think they have that aspect covered in reality a minimal amount of people do actually have that issue address hence why so many even with CO2 addition and good dosing still see the algaes that signal poor CO2 and then they can't figure out why.

Sort of goes against the original OP question too which is regarding dosing in a low tech tank. That means no CO2 and low light which will require (if anything) just N and possibly a teeny amount of P

PPS-Pro, PMDD+PO4 and EI are all aimed at hi-tec (CO2 injected) setups however they can be adapted for the low tech approach. I tend to use the EI mix but just add 8% of the wekly total without CO2 as I would with. Still OD'ing and probably more than PPS-Pro too.

If you want to go leaner than EI then I would suggest PMDD+PO4 which can be found here, EI recipe is on the site too plus a TPN+ DIY however like I say you may not need to dose at all:
http/www.theplantedtank.co.uk/PMDD.htm



AC

 

[markandhisfish]

just to clarify , when you say n and p im guessing you mean nitrate and phosphate?

 

[JenCliBee]

I wouldn't recommend PPS-Pro to a beginner adn definitely not to anyone who is using hobby test kits.

Its a pretty lean dosing method and relies on testing for current levels. That can spell disaster if using hobby test kits as they are notoriously inaccurate especially for phosphate and iron tests.

It also uses CO2 @15ppm which is fine in a prefectly balanced setup with the flow and circulation absoutely on the ball and whilst many may think they have that aspect covered in reality a minimal amount of people do actually have that issue address hence why so many even with CO2 addition and good dosing still see the algaes that signal poor CO2 and then they can't figure out why.

Sort of goes against the original OP question too which is regarding dosing in a low tech tank. That means no CO2 and low light which will require (if anything) just N and possibly a teeny amount of P

PPS-Pro, PMDD+PO4 and EI are all aimed at hi-tec (CO2 injected) setups however they can be adapted for the low tech approach. I tend to use the EI mix but just add 8% of the wekly total without CO2 as I would with. Still OD'ing and probably more than PPS-Pro too.

If you want to go leaner than EI then I would suggest PMDD+PO4 which can be found here, EI recipe is on the site too plus a TPN+ DIY however like I say you may not need to dose at all:
http/www.theplantedtank.co.uk/PMDD.htm



AC

I'm a little confused now?..... if your saying with the tank been low tech that he may not need anything other than a little N&P then any method weather lean or not will work because no matter how lean it is it would still be more than you think would be needed when you stated above....

That means no CO2 and low light which will require (if anything) just N and possibly a teeny amount of P

. .... Am i missing something or is this a complete contradiction?.

As you know ferts dont cause algae so adding that slightly more than needed and then diluting with a water change isn't going to hurt, the OP i doubt wouldn't do the whole (no water change and leave method) like a walstad tank and even many that do still dose to a certain degree.

To the OP, i would dose the tank but with something like TPN+ but probably make your own (far cheaper), the recipe is easily obtained and at least that way you know your plants arnt lacking, rather than wait for them to lack and the solve the problem.. why not just eliminate the potential lacking and slightly overdose from the start.

My method anyways weather it be on a lowtech (non co2/non carbon) tank or high tech, has always worked well for me and for many many others others.

 

[SuperColey1]

No its not a contradiction. The excess addition of the ferts in a CO2 enriched tank is due to the incredibly high uptake. It is also that 'deadspots' are replenished quicker. It uses the add more to make sure that the lower areas have enough. the other areas will have much more than enough.

In a non CO2 tank the water changes aren't done because of several aspects but mainly because of CO2. If you are relying on natural CO2 levels then doing water changes means the CO2 levels rise and fall and therefore are not stable.

You must remember that there is a high level of CO2 within the pressurised tap water. This can be gassed off before adding to the tank to negate that problem however you are then removing naturally occuring CO2 within the tank. Not from the fishes because that is minimal but from organic waste within the tank. The substrate will be a good source of CO2.

CO2 stability is the main reason for the no water changes.

Adding ferts to excess is nothing to be scared of however take into account that there will be remnants.

I personally would start higher and then push as low as I could go. possibly to zero additions as the fishload and organic decomposition should upply all that is needed apart from a few macros here and there. trace will not be needed as in such a low uptake setup the excess food and what the fish excrete will provide....traces.

Also to remember when getting used to the system is that ferts do not cause algae but algae does feed from ferts. That means if the tank isn't right then the excess will feed the algae. Its a 2 way balance really where the key is to get the plants working perfectly before algae steps in. This is why I never suggest (in fact argue against) people adding liquid carbon when they se their plants failing.

Adding liquid carbon speeds up the uptake and stretches the 'system' more thus if there were problems with the plants before and algae was growing it speeds up the problem.

Answer to the other question N and P are nitrogen and phosphorus. We use nitrate and phosphate to supply these but they are naturally occurring too.

When I use pressurised or DIY CO2 or liwuid carbon I use the full EI and 50-60% weekly water changes. When I use no CO2 addition I only need to add a small dose of N and P every month or 2.

What I am doing at the moment is adding 8% weekly because I have lowered my lights down to speed things up a little and therefore need a little boost to the ferts.

Its not something I would suggest to others but I have my setup virtually as perfect as can be and can get away with the higher light without CO2. More a case of do as I say rather than do as I do.

For me to suggest others take the route I have mine at currently would 99% of the time result in a mess. When you have the confidence and experience you can bend 'rules' quite a lot. before that stage it is best to bend as little as possible and follow the established (but up to date) rules.


AC