Diagnosis Needed

[who-izzet]

I've lost about 50 livebearers sofar and more are dying. My fish seem to be disintergrating in the water mainly from their fins but the odd few have started on their bodies. It's not a white slim but more grey or see through colour on tails and fins or nothing showing but tails dissapearing. Some have thick lips and some have had pop-eye but I think this is caused by the rotting. There was no early sign of flicking but this must be the 3rd-4th day now and alot flick.

I'm sure it's not poison now as I first though as I put 2 Siamese Fighters in breeding traps in the baby tank while this got sorted. Then the male fighter died over night. When I found him, he had rotted away. Since I have now lost 3 babies from this tank, so I have contaminated this tank too.

Prior to this I dropped a 13amp fuse in the main tank the day before the out-break, I'm not sure if this is relevant but I was treating a couple of fish for possible columnaris which seemed to clear. I boil everything when cleaning and I'm very careful & I clean the filters with tank water etc etc.

I have since put the livebearer fish into a hospital tank with Myxzin and Pimafix again but they are still dying very quickly!

Here are my stats. The last nitrate test was done a few days ago but I have run out of tests for this and have some more coming.

Main tank...
PH 7.0
GH 3
KH 3
Ammonia 0
Co2 7
Temp 79F
Cycled for 5 weeks and setup for 5 months without problems. Houses livebearers, silver sharks, sydnotis, angel fish and kissing g's (other fish are not effected).

Baby tank
PH 7.0
GH 3
KH 9
Ammonia 0
Co2 11
Temp 79F
Cycled 4-5 weeks around 3 years ago and had fish in since without problems.

All my tanks show as very good from the stats but like I say Nitrate hasn't been tested for a few days but it was zero.

I'm gob-smacked with this one because I've kept fish for years and never experienced this...
Here is a list of what I suspect...
Fin-Rot (severe)
Velvet?
Fish Tuberculosis (Mycobacterium)

I'm suspecting the last which is contagous to humans from fish. I'd appreciate any help.

 

[WILDER]

Greyish film on fish can be columnaris to parasite.
Velvet
The fish will have golden yellow spots on them or yellow golden patches to rusty patches, or look they have been sprinkled in talc.
Finrot can be a seondary infection.
Tb, signs are bent spine, being thin, sores on the fish, fins falling apart, dropsy, scales falling off.

Is it possible to load a pic up of the sick fish.

 

[who-izzet]

Greyish film on fish can be columnaris to parasite.
Velvet
The fish will have golden yellow spots on them or yellow golden patches to rusty patches, or look they have been sprinkled in talc.
Finrot can be a seondary infection.
Tb, signs are bent spine, being thin, sores on the fish, fins falling apart, dropsy, scales falling off.

Is it possible to load a pic up of the sick fish.

I can try yeah, if my camera is good enough. Most of the fish are not eating. I've checked the tanks today. 5 guppies tails are almost gone overnight, so I expect them to die soon but the lyre tail mollies seem to be clearing up. I have treated with the 2 meds we were talking about. The baby tank had 2 more casualties last night before I went to bed but everything seems ok at the moment. I have new borns in there.

 

[Colin_T]

It's either bacterial or parasitic (costia or chilondella). These are caused by overcrowded tanks and dirty environmental conditions. Do a massive water change 80% and gravel clean and dump a heap of salt in the tank. If there are corydoras or discus in the tank don't use the salt.
Use 2 heaped tablespoons of rock salt or sea salt per 20 litres of tank water. Leave the salt levels like that for a couple of weeks and if they are ok then start doing small 10% water changes each day to dilute the salt.

Fish TB kills fish slowly. You lose one every few weeks not a whole lot at once.
Fish TB can affect people but only if you have damaged skin and you get the contaminated water on it.
eg: if you have a cut on your hand and stick it in a TB infected tank you will probably develop a localised sore where the cut was, and the sore will not heal. It gets worse over a course of months and the doctors treat you for all sorts of things but none of them work. A smart doctor will take a swab of the infected area and have it cultured to see what is causing the problem. Then when they find out it is TB they cut the lesion out and put you on antibiotics for 3-6 months.
The TB sore grows slowly in your skin. If you have a sore on your hand or arm that hasn't healed after a couple of weeks get your doc to look at it and tell them you have fish and want the sore tested for Mycobacteria (fish TB).

 

[who-izzet]

It's either bacterial or parasitic (costia or chilondella). These are caused by overcrowded tanks and dirty environmental conditions. Do a massive water change 80% and gravel clean and dump a heap of salt in the tank. If there are corydoras or discus in the tank don't use the salt.
Use 2 heaped tablespoons of rock salt or sea salt per 20 litres of tank water. Leave the salt levels like that for a couple of weeks and if they are ok then start doing small 10% water changes each day to dilute the salt.

Fish TB kills fish slowly. You lose one every few weeks not a whole lot at once.
Fish TB can affect people but only if you have damaged skin and you get the contaminated water on it.
eg: if you have a cut on your hand and stick it in a TB infected tank you will probably develop a localised sore where the cut was, and the sore will not heal. It gets worse over a course of months and the doctors treat you for all sorts of things but none of them work. A smart doctor will take a swab of the infected area and have it cultured to see what is causing the problem. Then when they find out it is TB they cut the lesion out and put you on antibiotics for 3-6 months.
The TB sore grows slowly in your skin. If you have a sore on your hand or arm that hasn't healed after a couple of weeks get your doc to look at it and tell them you have fish and want the sore tested for Mycobacteria (fish TB).

I doubt it was overcrowded because it was a 440ltr tank but something sparked it off. I did have a huge dip in PH after a water change at one stage. I will try it with the salt like you said. I have aquatic salt or normal salt though. No cory's, loaches or anything like that in there so should be safe then.

I'm glad it's no TB!

 

[Colin_T]

not sure what aquatic salt is. I gather it is salt sold in petshops to be used for treating fish or adding to livebearer tanks.
Kitchen salt generally has iodine in and isn't recommended. Rock salt and pool salt (same thing, different name) is a course granulated salt. It is sodium chloride with nothing else in it. Some pool salt has calcium and magnesium in and is fine too but it will increase the general hardness of the water a little bit.

 

[who-izzet]

not sure what aquatic salt is. I gather it is salt sold in petshops to be used for treating fish or adding to livebearer tanks.
Kitchen salt generally has iodine in and isn't recommended. Rock salt and pool salt (same thing, different name) is a course granulated salt. It is sodium chloride with nothing else in it. Some pool salt has calcium and magnesium in and is fine too but it will increase the general hardness of the water a little bit.

Cheers mate. I've tried the aquatic salt because I don't have any of the others. It can't get worse because they are all dying. I've never seen an out-break like this one! It's very likely I will lose the lot, there is alot of oldies in there too. I have a gold sailfin molly that is 5inches long! He's starting to look abit down. If the worse happens I will scrub the tank down completely, perhaps let the sand and tank soak in salt for a day and then scrub it down and re-cycle it for 5 weeks again before starting again.

 

[who-izzet]

9 more have died sofar today. It's horrible waiting around and not being able to do no more!

 

[WILDER]

Take a look here first with the ph changing fast.

pH Shock

As its name suggests this condition occurs when a fish is introduced to quickly into a new environment which has a very different pH from the one it came from, when the pH is adjusted to quickly and the fish have little or no time to adjust themselves, or when the pH is to far outside the fishes normal range.

It is very important that any change in water chemistry is made slowly and fish should never be exposed to changes of pH greater than 0.5 of one unit on the pH scale in either direction.

Avoidance is by far the best solution because in most cases the symptoms don't appear until the second or third day by which time the damage has been done and the fish will probably die.

A fish suffering from this condition will show all the typical signs of shock -

Lying on the bottom and paying little or no attention to its surroundings and ignoring potential threats.
It may even lay on its side or go upside down completely.
There could be other signs to, related to Acidosis and Alkalosis
Excessive mucus production.
Rapid breathing.
Swollen abdomen. (Alkalosis only).
If the condition is allowed to go on for one or two days then the chances of a successful remedy are greatly reduced because a lot of damage will have taken place. If the symptoms are spotted early enough there are a couple of things that will help.

Begin to return the pH to the original pH in steps of 0.4 of one unit on the pH scale and allow 3 hrs in between the adjustments. Make these adjustments until the pH is returned to a safe and satisfactory level.
Treat the tank with a broad spectrum anti-Bacteria/Fungus compound to prevent secondary infections of the Skin and Gills.
Prevention is easy. A successful treatment isn't!

 

[who-izzet]

Yes I think it could have been ph shock. Like I say it has only effected the livebearers and siamese fighters. I've lost 3 overnight but things look slightly better. I've brought nitrate testing equiptment again and it is 0.2mg/l not perfect but in the safety zone. I've noticed that once the fish have grey on them, they are as good as dead. The ones without grey seem to look abit better.

On a good note, the babies that were born from a poorly mother are all ok. I have about 20 guppies and the mother looks better too. I can't see any new out-breaks on fish, so this looks like a step forward now. Other good news, a swordtail had babies in the treatment tank. Unfortunately I didn't expect any from her as she didn't look at all pregnant but 3 babies have been saved and the Rena baby tank has had no new break-outs either. Will continue treating and doing water changes.

I could do with something in the tanks to keep the PH around 7.0. Any suggestions because there has been alot of movement in our tap water here lately and I've tested tap water at 5.0 before now! I phoned the water board but they said it's allowed to drop that low.

I heard coral stones or lime stone are good. Can anyone point me into the right direction for something to put in the tank rather than a ph buffer as this could be the problem and it's really cost alot of lives.

and thanks Wilder and Colin!

 

[Colin_T]

Limestone can be obtained from your LFS or the beach. It is sold as base rock for cichlid tanks or reef tanks. You can also use shells of any sort. Check out the bird section at your petshop and find a bag of shell for the bottom of the cage. They have a couple of types but the one you want is white shells about the size of your little finger nail. Rinse it and put some in a filter bag and place it in your power filter. If you don't have a power filter just sprinkle some on the gravel. If you don't want to do that then put some in a mesh bag and leave it on the bottom of the tank.
The shells and limestone are calcium carbonate and will help to buffer the PH and stop it going too acidic too quickly. You will have to monitor the PH over the first month or so and either add or remove some of the shells/ limestone until you get the desired PH.
If your tap water is coming out really acidic add a small amount of sodium bicarb to the water while it is in a bucket. Stir it up and wait 10 minutes. Keep adding small amounts of sodium bicarb until the bucket of tap water has a similar PH to the tank. This should prevent PH shock from occurring.

 

[who-izzet]

Limestone can be obtained from your LFS or the beach. It is sold as base rock for cichlid tanks or reef tanks. You can also use shells of any sort. Check out the bird section at your petshop and find a bag of shell for the bottom of the cage. They have a couple of types but the one you want is white shells about the size of your little finger nail. Rinse it and put some in a filter bag and place it in your power filter. If you don't have a power filter just sprinkle some on the gravel. If you don't want to do that then put some in a mesh bag and leave it on the bottom of the tank.
The shells and limestone are calcium carbonate and will help to buffer the PH and stop it going too acidic too quickly. You will have to monitor the PH over the first month or so and either add or remove some of the shells/ limestone until you get the desired PH.
If your tap water is coming out really acidic add a small amount of sodium bicarb to the water while it is in a bucket. Stir it up and wait 10 minutes. Keep adding small amounts of sodium bicarb until the bucket of tap water has a similar PH to the tank. This should prevent PH shock from occurring.

I've been adding the bicarb soda to the bucket mate, when I realised the problem. I've kept fish for years and never had PH problems. Infact going back 10 years ago, I think I only had white-spot on the odd occasion. Now it seems whitespot is easy to cure and there are all these bad bacteria's, infections and crazy things you have to do to keep the fish.

Just checked the tank. No more casualties yet but 5 fish still really bad and I expect they will die. However the rest don't look too bad. There is alot of inching on the sand substrates though? Is this because of the salt or possible parasite now? I may try to get hold of the bird shells and add them to the filter in the 5ft tank. The smaller tanks will have to have the shell sprinkled. I have some tropical fish coral stone I may put in the smaller tanks.

 

[Colin_T]

the shell doesn't have to be bird shell but that is usually easy to get. If you find a nice shell on the beach and it doesn't have anything living in it, you can use that instead.

The itching/ scratching on the gravel might be whitespot. Keep an eye on them and if you see any spots treat them. Copper based medications will work in tanks with salt.

 

[who-izzet]

the shell doesn't have to be bird shell but that is usually easy to get. If you find a nice shell on the beach and it doesn't have anything living in it, you can use that instead.

The itching/ scratching on the gravel might be whitespot. Keep an eye on them and if you see any spots treat them. Copper based medications will work in tanks with salt.

Ah yes your right mate. I've noticed 2 guppies with 1 spot on. These poor fish are going through hell! I've checked all the parameters and they are good. Will turning the temp up to quicken the white-spot life span be ok with the fin rot? I've got salt in there etc.

 

[Colin_T]

Don’t raise the temp too much because it will quicken the growth rate of bacteria, fungus and the whitespot. If they just had the whitespot it wouldn't be an issue, but because there is a possible bacterial or parasitic problem you don't want to encourage that to grow faster. Also the higher temperature will mean the water holds less oxygen and that can stress the fish even further.
Try to keep everything stabile and run a course of whitespot medication, and keep the salt in there.