Cycling With Fish Diary

[darenshan54]

So started my cycle yesterday with 3 zebra danios in a 20 gallon tank. 8 plants in the tank ( with 6500k 90w). I also added stress zyme, don't know if it will work.

Day2: NH3: 0.5 ppm, NH4:0,
20% water change.

im thinking if i should let the NH3 go a little higher

 

[glolite]

Noooo! Not with fish in there. The idea is to keep ammonia and nitrites at zero as they will poison your fish. The good bacteria will still build up over time but for now you need to do a 50% water change ASAP. Then recheck and water change again if necessary.

You only want ammonia in the tank with a fishLESS cycle.

 

[waterdrop]

Agree! I'd even do a 70% in that situation --wd--

 

[darenshan54]

70% wc when the ammonia is under 0.5 ppm?

 

[waterdrop]

Right, the goal in a fish-in cycling situation is to not let ammonia or nitrite go above 0.25ppm, where its starts to do permanent gill damage. By doing a large water change you take that number down close to zero ppm, allowing you more time before it will climb back to 0.25ppm. Usually people test twice a day about 12 hours apart. You want to do some detective work to figure out what sort of percentage change will allow you to get back home again before you next hit 0.25 and need to do another. We've just found that if you start with a large change its more sure to reset you and let you get a good start on that process.

The LFS imperative to not scare off the customer and to make money has led to a very strong propaganda of casualness about what numbers constitute a toxic situation for the fish. The simple technique of water changes in fact, I believe, is downplayed also, to instead allow the promotion of bottled chemicals to resolve toxic situations. Determining what a toxic level for a given substance for a given species might be is a complicated thing of course but in the limnology world I believe its a reasonable thing to worry about levels beyond 0.25ppm causing long term gill damage in some of the individual tropical species, thus its use.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[darenshan54]

i do 2 water changes a day 50% each just to get the ammonia down to 0.25ppm (wouldn't a lower ppm cause the cycle to take longer?). Should i feed less, or even not at all?

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, always lighten your feeding to as light as possible during a fish-in cycling situation. You want to minimize waste in any way you can. Never worry too much about zero and near zero ammonia readings from the test kits we use. The "zero" means something like "zero for fish"... not absolute zero chemically. If you think about it, once you have a robust, healthy filter and a full stock of fish, there will be -plenty- of ammonia flowing from the fish to the bacteria and yet whenever you test it, it will be "zero!" So the ammonia that's making that trip is just too low for our ammonia kits to show as a trace. In "planted tanks" this is also an issue because that "invisible ammonia," when it fluctuates, is what triggers algae!

So, bottom line, don't worry about it starting out with a reading of zero after the water change. The important thing is to catch it at 0.25ppm, rather than at 0.50 or higher. The goal is to eventually go two days without changing water but with no traces of ammonia or nitrite showing up. This usually happens after about a month of fish-in cycling, but its very unpredictable and anyone can get lucky!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[darenshan54]

Yes, always lighten your feeding to as light as possible during a fish-in cycling situation. You want to minimize waste in any way you can. Never worry too much about zero and near zero ammonia readings from the test kits we use. The "zero" means something like "zero for fish"... not absolute zero chemically. If you think about it, once you have a robust, healthy filter and a full stock of fish, there will be -plenty- of ammonia flowing from the fish to the bacteria and yet whenever you test it, it will be "zero!" So the ammonia that's making that trip is just too low for our ammonia kits to show as a trace. In "planted tanks" this is also an issue because that "invisible ammonia," when it fluctuates, is what triggers algae!

So, bottom line, don't worry about it starting out with a reading of zero after the water change. The important thing is to catch it at 0.25ppm, rather than at 0.50 or higher. The goal is to eventually go two days without changing water but with no traces of ammonia or nitrite showing up. This usually happens after about a month of fish-in cycling, but its very unpredictable and anyone can get lucky!

~~waterdrop~~

i haven't bought a nitrite test yet, ill get one this weekend. My dad wants to add on more guppy this weekend as well, will this be ok for the cycling process? And thanks for the advice!

 

[glolite]

Not a good idea to add more fish, this will just increase the ammonia.
More fish = more fish poo = more ammonia = more water changes = more work
There is hardly any good bacteria in your filter yet to support the fish you already have.

As Waterdrop said, ammonia needs to be below 0.25 otherwise your existing fish will suffer permanent gill damage and possibly die.

If you can get hold of some mature filter media from someone elses tank, this will speed up the cycling process as it will "seed" your filter with good bacteria. This good bacteria will help to break down fish waste (ammonia) and turn it into nitrIte which is then broken down to less harmful nitrAte. This chemical process takes time to happen so try not to be impatient about getting more fish.

If you concentrate on testing for ammonia and nitrIte daily and keep both as near to zero as possible by doing waterchanges, your filter will build up enough good bacteria to support many fish without causing them harm. Wait at least a month until adding more fish. Then you'll be able to ad 2 or 3 per week.

Good luck.

 

[darenshan54]

Not a good idea to add more fish, this will just increase the ammonia.
More fish = more fish poo = more ammonia = more water changes = more work
There is hardly any good bacteria in your filter yet to support the fish you already have.

As Waterdrop said, ammonia needs to be below 0.25 otherwise your existing fish will suffer permanent gill damage and possibly die.

If you can get hold of some mature filter media from someone elses tank, this will speed up the cycling process as it will "seed" your filter with good bacteria. This good bacteria will help to break down fish waste (ammonia) and turn it into nitrIte which is then broken down to less harmful nitrAte. This chemical process takes time to happen so try not to be impatient about getting more fish.

If you concentrate on testing for ammonia and nitrIte daily and keep both as near to zero as possible by doing waterchanges, your filter will build up enough good bacteria to support many fish without causing them harm. Wait at least a month until adding more fish. Then you'll be able to ad 2 or 3 per week.

Good luck.

ya, the water changes are getting tiring, 50% morning and night to get under 0.25ppm

 

[Truck]

you want to get a 0 reading on the test kit...0.25ppm is now definite figure, i dont even know where it originally spanned from as i see it on other forums too.

the toxicity of ammonia/ammonium is influenced by temperature, PH, GH and other factors so getting 0 on the test kit is the best bet...if you're lucky 0.25 can be relativly harmless if your PH is quite low but on the flip side nitrite will be more toxic than it normally is

 

[darenshan54]

Im trying to get my hands on some gravel from a mature tank, but wouldnt 0ppm ammonia starve the bacteria.

 

[waterdrop]

No, zero ppm does not starve the bacteria. The test kit "zero" is really a zero for fish but its partly that the kit is not sensitive enough to go down to smaller amounts. We all get zero readings while filtering with fully cycled filters and full loads of fish and we know that plenty of ammonia is passing from the fish to the bacteria. Also, bacteria can go a pretty long time without ammonia.

There is a practical aspect to the 0.25ppm figure in that its the first color step on the api test, 0.30ppm being the first color step on the nutrafin test. They both get cited. A fish-in cycle is never a good situation for the fish, no matter what the levels, but I think the procedures we cite help to simplify a practical approach that members can do when they find themselves in it.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[mbsqw1d]

Im trying to get my hands on some gravel from a mature tank, but wouldnt 0ppm ammonia starve the bacteria.

I have just swapped my gravel for sand. You wouldn't live near Chester would you?

 

[darenshan54]

Im trying to get my hands on some gravel from a mature tank, but wouldnt 0ppm ammonia starve the bacteria.

I have just swapped my gravel for sand. You wouldn't live near Chester would you?

is that near Edmonton Alberta ,Canada