Cycling My 10 Gallon

[GetItSahn]

1 week ago I got a 10 gallon tank. I set it up that night, filled it up, got the temp/ph all set and added ONLY mature filter media. I then dosed enough ammonia to feed the bacteria until I added fish because I knew I couldn't add until this week.
While I know this isn't a traditional "fish-in cycle", I have only done a fishless cycle before and I feel I am responsible enough to keep up with the needed water changes and ensuring the overall health of my fish during a fish-in cycle. 
 
I am posting this purely to see if anyone has any advice for the first time cycling a tank in this manner and I'm NOT looking for people demonizing me for my decision because WHEN DONE CORRECTLY a fish-in cycle can be just as ethical as a fishless cycle. It's the lazy owners that do it improperly that give it a bad name.
 
In case anyone is interested, I'll be posting here about once a week and updating everyone on my progress. Have a blessed weekend everyone!
 

 

[Fishmanic]

as long as you don't add fish until ammonia and nitrites are at 0 and then do water changes as needed to keep levels near 0,  then maybe you'll be ok using your method---I did a fishless cycle --- it took about a month but I felt it was worth it and easier---but do whatever method makes you happy--just don't add a full stock of fish all at once--do so gradually over a few weeks

 

[GetItSahn]

as long as you don't add fish until ammonia and nitrites are at 0 and then do water changes as needed to keep levels near 0,  then maybe you'll be ok using your method---I did a fishless cycle --- it took about a month but I felt it was worth it and easier---but do whatever method makes you happy--just don't add a full stock of fish all at once--do so gradually over a few weeks

I did about a 75% water change before adding anything. That took care of the ammonia and nitrate pretty well. I plan on having the tank full stocked by December if everything goes according to plan. I'm going to be doing 10% daily wc for the time being

 

[Fishmanic]

sounds like you're dead set on doing a fishless cycle--hope you're using a good test kit to keep the levels in range- good luck

 

[GetItSahn]

sounds like you're dead set on doing a fishless cycle--hope you're using a good test kit to keep the levels in range- good luck

I appreciate it man

 

[TwoTankAmin]

It is a fallacy to think that doing lots of water changes which prolong a fish in cycle is less harmfull/stressful to fish than allowing total ammonia to rise higher than most folks believe is actually safe. And what is the better alternative to doing repeated water changes for nitrites in order to keep fish safe? Since you know what you are doing here, can you tell us what is the current level of NH3 in your tank?
 
The best decision you have made was to seed the tank. But if you would have gone with seeding and fishless, you would be cycled way faster and no fish would be at risk.

 

[GetItSahn]

morning after adding the fish, ammonia was .25. did daily water change and it took until this morning to show an ammonia reading again and it didn't look like .25 or 0, kinda in between

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Pardon my bluntness, but you have little idea what you are doing here. If your NH3 were .25 ppm all your fish would be long dead. Please rethink things as I would bet money that you are doing the fish harm and for sure shortening their lives.
 
NH3 + NH4 = total ammonia as read on an API kit. The red line level for NH3 is .05 ppm and the safe level for most things aquatic is .02 ppm or lower. To calculate the amount of NH3, which some will state is 100 times as toxic as NH4, you need to either use a formula or a calculator and you must know your correct pH and Temperature for this formula.
 
At .25 ppm on an API test kit there is not enough NH3 in a tank to do harm to almost anything unless your pH is well over 8.0 and the temp pushing into the 80s F.
 
To handle nitrite you only need to add chloride in proper amounts to the water and it leaves the nitrite available for the bacteria to finish the cycle ASAP yet it blocks it's effects inside the fish.
 
Most fish keepers today have no idea how to pull off a proper fish in cycle safely. It has become a lost art thanks to the advent of the safer, easier and faster fishless methods.
 
If nothing else please takes steps to seed your tank with a viable bottled bacteria or with as much bacteria from established tanks as you can find. Give the fish a fighting chance to make it through this unscathed.

 

[GetItSahn]

Pardon my bluntness, but you have little idea what you are doing here. If your NH3 were .25 ppm all your fish would be long dead. Please rethink things as I would bet money that you are doing the fish harm and for sure shortening their lives.
 
NH3 + NH4 = total ammonia as read on an API kit. The red line level for NH3 is .05 ppm and the safe level for most things aquatic is .02 ppm or lower. To calculate the amount of NH3, which some will state is 100 times as toxic as NH4, you need to either use a formula or a calculator and you must know your correct pH and Temperature for this formula.
 
At .25 ppm on an API test kit there is not enough NH3 in a tank to do harm to almost anything unless your pH is well over 8.0 and the temp pushing into the 80s F.
 
To handle nitrite you only need to add chloride in proper amounts to the water and it leaves the nitrite available for the bacteria to finish the cycle ASAP yet it blocks it's effects inside the fish.
 
Most fish keepers today have no idea how to pull off a proper fish in cycle safely. It has become a lost art thanks to the advent of the safer, easier and faster fishless methods.
 
If nothing else please takes steps to seed your tank with a viable bottled bacteria or with as much bacteria from established tanks as you can find. Give the fish a fighting chance to make it through this unscathed.

little of anything you said made sense to me. I said the AMMONIA reading (which is what it's called on the API test) was .25 the first time. This is the lowest reading you can get besides 0.
As far as getting as much bacteria from established tanks as possible...I would estimate that 75% of the filter media comes from my 29 gallon cycled tank
I couldn't care less what you would bet money on. I am keeping up with keeping the water as pristine as possible and there have been NO signs of ammonia poisoning or any other ailment.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The fact that little of what I said made any sense to you is because you have no real idea what your are doing. My attempt to explain this has clearly failed.
 
What makes the situation even worse is that you apparently did not spend any time at all trying to figure out any of it. So before I walk away from this thread I will do a bit of the work you should have done yourself. The information below is from the University of Florida:
 

 
Most commercial ammonia test kits measure the total ammonia nitrogen (TAN). Again, it is the un-ionized ammonia (or UIA) portion of the TAN that is more toxic. The UIA fraction of the total TAN can be determined from the TAN measurement if you know the temperature and pH of the water. At high temperatures and high pH, there is more UIA. Therefore, a good ammonia test kit will include a TAN test, a pH test, and a thermometer........

Interpreting the Ammonia Test
In healthy ponds and tanks, ammonia levels should always be zero. Presence of ammonia is an indication that the system is out of balance. Therefore, any ammonia in a pond or tank should alert the producer to start corrective measures. Un-ionized ammonia (UIA) is about 100 times more toxic to fish than ionized ammonia. This UIA toxicity begins as low as 0.05 mg/L, so the result of the TAN test needs to be further calculated to find the actual concentration of UIA. To do this calculation, the temperature and pH need to be measured.

from http/edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa031
 
The API kit does not measure total ammonia nitrogen (TAN), it measures total ammonia (TA). The measurement scales are not the same. Its like miles vs kilometers. 5 ppm of total ammonia nitrogen will read 6.4 ppm total ammonia on an API kit. This is amplified as one tests next for nitrite and finally for nitrate.
 
or this:
 
REVIEW PAPER
Ammonia in estuaries and effects on fish
F. B. EDDY
Environmental and Applied Biology, Faculty of Life Sciences, University of Dundee,
Dundee DD1 4HN, U.K.
(Received 3 December 2004, Accepted 18 July 2005)
 

 
In many studies the toxicity of ammonia is described in terms of ambient unionized ammonia since this is the variable that correlates with toxicity (Alabaster & Lloyd, 1982; Thurston et al., 1984). This criterion, however, is based almost exclusively on data from freshwater fish that are considered to be relatively impermeable to NH4+. Since seawater fish apparently have enhanced permeability to NH4+ it may be inappropriate to refer to toxicity in terms of unionized ammonia alone (Wilson & Taylor, 1992; Wilkie, 1997). It may be for this reason that ammonia appears to be more toxic in sea water compared to fresh water. This is supported a recent analysis by Ip et al. (2001) and Randall & Tsui (2002) of the data presented by USEPA (1984, 1989) that indicated that the mean acute toxicity value for 32 freshwater species was c. 2.3 mg NH3–N 1-1compared with 1.5 mg NH3–N 1-1 for 17 seawater species. For the five most sensitive species the values were 0.79 mg NH3–N 1-1 and 0.68 mg NH3–N 1-1 for fresh water and sea water respectively. Generally salmonids are amongst the most sensitive species and carp and cyprinids are amongst the least sensitive to ammonia (Seager et al., 1988; USEPA, 1999). As previously mentioned, however, differences in ammonia sensitivity between species are much greater than differences related to salinity.

from http/www.aseanenvironment.info/abstract/41015647.pdf
 
and finally this from the Merck Veterinary Manual
 

 
NH3 is highly toxic and frequently limits fish production in intensive systems. It is also dynamic, and when it enters the aquatic system, an equilibrium is established between NH3 and ammonium (NH4+). Of the two, NH3 is far more toxic to fish, and its formation is favored by high pH (>7) and water temperature. When pH exceeds ∼8.5, any NH3 present can be dangerous. In general, a normally functioning aquatic system should contain no measurable NH3 because as soon as it enters the system, it should be removed by aerobic bacteria in the environment. Ammonia test kits do not typically measure NH3 directly but instead measure the combination of NH3 and NH4, referred to as total ammonia nitrogen (TAN). A TAN <1 mg/L is usually not cause for concern unless the pH is > 8.5. However, if the amount of NH3 is increased, an explanation should be sought. The amount of toxic NH3 present can be calculated using the TAN, pH, and water temperature. When NH3 levels exceed 0.05 mg/L, damage to gills becomes apparent; levels of 2.0 mg/L are lethal for many fish. Fish exposed to ammonia may be lethargic and have poor appetites. Acute toxicity may be suggested by neurologic signs such as spinning, disorientation and convulsions.

from http/www.merckmanuals.com/vet/exotic_and_laboratory_animals/fish/environmental_diseases_of_fish.html

 

[GetItSahn]

The fact that little of what I said made any sense to you is because you have no real idea what your are doing. My attempt to explain this has clearly failed.
 
What makes the situation even worse is that you apparently did not spend any time at all trying to figure out any of it. So before I walk away from this thread I will do a bit of the work you should have done yourself. The information below is from the University of Florida:
 

 
Most commercial ammonia test kits measure the total ammonia nitrogen (TAN). Again, it is the un-ionized ammonia (or UIA) portion of the TAN that is more toxic. The UIA fraction of the total TAN can be determined from the TAN measurement if you know the temperature and pH of the water. At high temperatures and high pH, there is more UIA. Therefore, a good ammonia test kit will include a TAN test, a pH test, and a thermometer........
Interpreting the Ammonia Test In healthy ponds and tanks, ammonia levels should always be zero. Presence of ammonia is an indication that the system is out of balance. Therefore, any ammonia in a pond or tank should alert the producer to start corrective measures. Un-ionized ammonia (UIA) is about 100 times more toxic to fish than ionized ammonia. This UIA toxicity begins as low as 0.05 mg/L, so the result of the TAN test needs to be further calculated to find the actual concentration of UIA. To do this calculation, the temperature and pH need to be measured.

from http/edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa031
 
The API kit does not measure total ammonia nitrogen (TAN), it measures total ammonia (TA). The measurement scales are not the same. Its like miles vs kilometers. 5 ppm of total ammonia nitrogen will read 6.4 ppm total ammonia on an API kit. This is amplified as one tests next for nitrite and finally for nitrate.
 
or this:
 
REVIEW PAPER
Ammonia in estuaries and effects on fish
F. B. EDDY
Environmental and Applied Biology, Faculty of Life Sciences, University of Dundee,
Dundee DD1 4HN, U.K.
(Received 3 December 2004, Accepted 18 July 2005)
 

 
In many studies the toxicity of ammonia is described in terms of ambient unionized ammonia since this is the variable that correlates with toxicity (Alabaster & Lloyd, 1982; Thurston et al., 1984). This criterion, however, is based almost exclusively on data from freshwater fish that are considered to be relatively impermeable to NH4+. Since seawater fish apparently have enhanced permeability to NH4+ it may be inappropriate to refer to toxicity in terms of unionized ammonia alone (Wilson & Taylor, 1992; Wilkie, 1997). It may be for this reason that ammonia appears to be more toxic in sea water compared to fresh water. This is supported a recent analysis by Ip et al. (2001) and Randall & Tsui (2002) of the data presented by USEPA (1984, 1989) that indicated that the mean acute toxicity value for 32 freshwater species was c. 2.3 mg NH3–N 1-1compared with 1.5 mg NH3–N 1-1 for 17 seawater species. For the five most sensitive species the values were 0.79 mg NH3–N 1-1 and 0.68 mg NH3–N 1-1 for fresh water and sea water respectively. Generally salmonids are amongst the most sensitive species and carp and cyprinids are amongst the least sensitive to ammonia (Seager et al., 1988; USEPA, 1999). As previously mentioned, however, differences in ammonia sensitivity between species are much greater than differences related to salinity.

from http/www.aseanenvironment.info/abstract/41015647.pdf
 
and finally this from the Merck Veterinary Manual
 

 
NH3 is highly toxic and frequently limits fish production in intensive systems. It is also dynamic, and when it enters the aquatic system, an equilibrium is established between NH3 and ammonium (NH4+). Of the two, NH3 is far more toxic to fish, and its formation is favored by high pH (>7) and water temperature. When pH exceeds ∼8.5, any NH3 present can be dangerous. In general, a normally functioning aquatic system should contain no measurable NH3 because as soon as it enters the system, it should be removed by aerobic bacteria in the environment. Ammonia test kits do not typically measure NH3 directly but instead measure the combination of NH3 and NH4, referred to as total ammonia nitrogen (TAN). A TAN <1 mg/L is usually not cause for concern unless the pH is > 8.5. However, if the amount of NH3 is increased, an explanation should be sought. The amount of toxic NH3 present can be calculated using the TAN, pH, and water temperature. When NH3 levels exceed 0.05 mg/L, damage to gills becomes apparent; levels of 2.0 mg/L are lethal for many fish. Fish exposed to ammonia may be lethargic and have poor appetites. Acute toxicity may be suggested by neurologic signs such as spinning, disorientation and convulsions.

from http/www.merckmanuals.com/vet/exotic_and_laboratory_animals/fish/environmental_diseases_of_fish.html


Well I have read tons on posts on these very forums and not one time has anyone ever mentioned NH3 so why would I have thought of that at all?
I like how the info you posted says "a good" test kit will include TAN yet almost everyone I have ever talked to says the API freshwater kit is the top notch water test kit. 
All you have done is insult me and have been of no real help

 

[Madness13]

What fish do you currently have in the tank? I have seeded before and added fish in too whilst making sure the water was clean enough for them. I had no problems at all really. Are your readings of ammonia and nitrite 0?

 

[GetItSahn]

What fish do you currently have in the tank? I have seeded before and added fish in too whilst making sure the water was clean enough for them. I had no problems at all really. Are your readings of ammonia and nitrite 0?

just guppies, 5 females. I also added a few MTS from my main tank. For the past two days, yes, they are both 0 with nitrates seeming to stay at around 10.
Happy to hear that you have had success with this also.

 

[Madness13]

Sounds like you are on the right track then! Before you know it you'll have an awesome amount of beneficial bacteria. I'd just test the water every few days and take it from there. Not sure how experienced you are with the cycle, but even small amounts of 0.25 ammonia/nitrite can affect fish over a small period of time.

 

[GetItSahn]

Sounds like you are on the right track then! Before you know it you'll have an awesome amount of beneficial bacteria. I'd just test the water every few days and take it from there. Not sure how experienced you are with the cycle, but even small amounts of 0.25 ammonia/nitrite can affect fish over a small period of time.

Thanks! Like I said earlier, most of my filter media already has bacteria since it's from my main tank. I understand how damaging ammonia can be and I try to do a water change once levels are detected.