Cycling After Death

[shbimi]

Hi everyone,
I had two guppies to cycle my tank, which they did, but both have died. It was a parasite of some sort (they were flashing and shimmying with rapid breathing), but i could not save them. My question is, do i need to start again and so a comepletely new cycle with everything scrubbed clean, or can i do a partial water change and add more fish? I'm guessing the parasite will still be in the water?

 

[MollyFresh]

wow, just for the fact that the parasite could still be in the water I wouldnt risk it. If it were me, I would start completely over and scrub the tank clean.

 

[adam98150]

Hi everyone,
I had two guppies to cycle my tank, which they did, but both have died. It was a parasite of some sort (they were flashing and shimmying with rapid breathing), but i could not save them. My question is, do i need to start again and so a comepletely new cycle with everything scrubbed clean, or can i do a partial water change and add more fish? I'm guessing the parasite will still be in the water?

Are you sure it was a parasite? Did you try to identify what it was?

Did you test your water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings? How long did you cycle your tank for?

Please try to answer these questions, it would really help.

 

[shbimi]

Hi everyone,
I had two guppies to cycle my tank, which they did, but both have died. It was a parasite of some sort (they were flashing and shimmying with rapid breathing), but i could not save them. My question is, do i need to start again and so a comepletely new cycle with everything scrubbed clean, or can i do a partial water change and add more fish? I'm guessing the parasite will still be in the water?

Are you sure it was a parasite? Did you try to identify what it was?

Did you test your water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings? How long did you cycle your tank for?

Please try to answer these questions, it would really help.

No, i am not completely sure it was a parasite. They were flashing, particularly on their gills, and had a blue/green pearly shine to them. I don't know if this was there before, though. They were also swimming around crazily some times, and others they would just stay still. Their colours were fading and one would have what looked like spasms, where their tail would curl to one side and shake violently for 5 or so seconds.

Tested my levels and they were fine, after cycling the tank for 3 weeks. I know this is soon, but my levels were completely normal - went to two aquarium stores with my sample to check.

 

[adam98150]

So no nitrite or ammonia readings? They should be zero.

I've never encountered what you have described, so i cannot give you advice in confidence.

Sorry.

 

[shbimi]

So no nitrite or ammonia readings? They should be zero.

As far as i'm aware, yes. Both shops said they were fine and nothing to worry about. Though this does not mean they were at zero. Even if they weren't, i'm still fairly sure they had parasites and despite my daily water changes and adding salt, they won.

 

[adam98150]

Or, ok. The next time you visit the store just ask for the exact readings of your water parameters.

If you don't mind cleaning your tank, and restarting your cycle, i say go for it. Just remember to rinse the tank well, and to clean the filter and it's media. Let your filter completely dry out before adding it back into your aquarium. Use hot water if necessary, for the media that is.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi shbimi and welcome to TFF!

Hate to say it but everything you are describing sounds like the classic case we see many times per week as newcomers join the forum for help. The fish symptoms you describe fit what we see over and over that turns out to be burning and permanent damage to the gills by ammonia. Unfortunately it doesn't work to have the LFS periodically check the water. The most important piece of equipment you need along with a tank, filter, heater and conditioner is a liquid-reagent based test kit. Many of us in the forum us the API Freshwater Master Test Kit but there is also the Hagen/Nutrafin Mini-Master, if it has the nitrate test included. Its important with a new tank to test once or twice a day and follow what really happens in your water.

Having the fish store just say "fine" or "you need this bottle of chemical" just doesn't work out. Its important to know that ammonia is zero parts per million and nitrite is zero parts per million and to know that day after day. By the time trace amounts of these poisons show up on our tests they are damaging the fish and if the levels get a bit higher, the fish die, as yours did.

Not sure how you stumbled on this web forum but now you have a chance to do things a completely different way. I've been here for a while, learning, and its really fun! After a while you can't believe how different the real thing of good fishkeeping is from what is going on in the pet shops.

Good luck, let us know your next questions and we can point you in the right direction,
~~waterdrop~~

 

[shbimi]

Hi shbimi and welcome to TFF!

Hate to say it but everything you are describing sounds like the classic case we see many times per week as newcomers join the forum for help. The fish symptoms you describe fit what we see over and over that turns out to be burning and permanent damage to the gills by ammonia. Unfortunately it doesn't work to have the LFS periodically check the water. The most important piece of equipment you need along with a tank, filter, heater and conditioner is a liquid-reagent based test kit. Many of us in the forum us the API Freshwater Master Test Kit but there is also the Hagen/Nutrafin Mini-Master, if it has the nitrate test included. Its important with a new tank to test once or twice a day and follow what really happens in your water.

Having the fish store just say "fine" or "you need this bottle of chemical" just doesn't work out. Its important to know that ammonia is zero parts per million and nitrite is zero parts per million and to know that day after day. By the time trace amounts of these poisons show up on our tests they are damaging the fish and if the levels get a bit higher, the fish die, as yours did.

Not sure how you stumbled on this web forum but now you have a chance to do things a completely different way. I've been here for a while, learning, and its really fun! After a while you can't believe how different the real thing of good fishkeeping is from what is going on in the pet shops.

Good luck, let us know your next questions and we can point you in the right direction,
~~waterdrop~~

Thank you very much for your reply. I'm upset that it sounds like ammonia poisoning. I really tried to help them and held confidence in my lfs when they said my readings were good. I do just want to be sure, if it was an external parasite, am i to completely re-cycle? I will research ammonia poisoning again and see if it sounds similar to what my fish had. I think i discounted this problem when lfs said the levels were normal.

 

[vinylman]

As Waterdrop says, I doubt it was a parasite; the guppies (which are nowhere near as hardy as they used to be anyway) will have had their gills burned by Ammonia. Even the ones that don't die after being used to cycle a tank will still have permanent gill damage, it doesn't heal. The only ways to avoid it are to either fishless cycle, or to obtain some mature filter media (sponge) then add a few fish to keep up the bacteria until the old media has transferred to the new filter media. It's a regular occurrence, unfortunately; most LFS are there to sell you things like fish that keep dying, as well as lots of things you don't actually need. To find a good one near you shouldn't be difficult, but often is.

 

[tenohfive]

Personally I'd do as people are saying above-empty the tank, clean everything including the filter (leaving to dry) and start again from scratch. I'd advise fishless cycling to be on the safe side, but if you decide to in fish cycle then do daily checks with a testing kit and be prepared to do big water changes if any ammonia shows.

 

[shbimi]

Thanks everyone. Looked up the symptoms of ammonia poisioning again, and it looks like that's what they had. Thank you waterdrop and vinylman for helping me. I've been posting my worries on another forum, but they were of no help. I only wish i'd come on here sooner. Before the problem began, i was changing 10% twice weekly, and then when the problem began, i was changing the water near enough every day, 5-10% and always removing unwanted food. I will go and buy a test kit for myself, and then, when my tank has cycled fully, i will add one fish. Does this sound like the best thing to do? It may even be cycled now, because as you say, ammonia poisoning is irreversable, so even if my water was ok when they died, the damage was still being done.

 

[Amunet]

I would just start over with a fishless cycle. It's tedious and seems to take forever (b/c you can't wait for it to be done so you can get fish! heh), but in the end it works beautifully without having to harm any fish.
With a fishless cycle you can usually go ahead and pretty much fully stock the tank once the cycling is done. We did in our 28gallon with no problems at all. But if you're still cautious and not sure, then adding in a few at a time will work

I think most of us have made bad newbie errors when we first started out. I know I have and unfortunatly, many fish ended up dying b/c of our mistakes. Be happy that you found a very wonderful forums with lots of helpful info and people

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, glad you have turned the corner and seen a whole new tree-lined avenue to walk down, lol, welcome to tff. My personal take is that you will psychologically feel better if you have a good clean and dry-out of your tank, gravel and equipment and then start the fishless cycling (and use that term!, not "cycling!") Maybe not entirely necessary, but otherwise you would be wondering, and giving the gravel a fresh rinse is never bad before a fresh start.

The test kit is all-important. As said in other beginner threads and maybe here, can't remember, you will want to look for a liquid-reagent based kit that includes ammonia, nitrite, pH and nitrate tests. In UK, Hagan/Nutrafin seem to make a mini-master one that includes the nitrate test. In USA, the nitrate seems to go missing in the mini-master. API makes the API Freshwater Master Test Kit, which is what I and many others on TFF use, although this is not to say its the best at everything in the long run, just seems very good for starters.

When you get home with your kit there will be some fairly tedious instructions and I recommend you do a couple of complete runs of all the tests on your tap water, perhaps on tap water pre-conditioner and then tap water post-conditioner and then post up the results here in your thread. This will make a great start and you'll be able to look back at it later here for reference. You also may want a quantity-marked syringe from the drugstore and/or a couple of glass eye-droppers.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[shbimi]

Ok, i will do all the things you suggest. Just out of interest, if i had known it was ammonia poisoning, should i have culled them before they died, because they were in distress.