Cycling A 25 Gallon Tank With Fish

[ficklefins]

I just set up a 25 gallon tank.  Long story short the only reason I even caved and got a new tank was because the LFS had platinum angelfish and I fell in love.  I WAS going to fishless cycle but when I went back to the LFS they had about half as many of the platinums as they'd had before and it wasn't something that they got in very often.  So I picked up three angels four days ago, all under or right at 1 inch, and decided to risk it with cycling the tank with fish.  I added some of the "bacteria in a bottle" to help things along and have been monitering the ammonia and nitrites closely.  Right now the ammonia is reading .5ppm and nitrites are still 0.  I am feeding the little guys sparingly and remove any uneaten food after two or three minutes. 
 
Anyways, I've never cycled with fish so I don't exactly know what to do here.  Some people have told me to start doing small water changes right away, others have said doing any water changes in the first month will slow the cycling process and hurt the fish in the long run.  Prime is my normal water conditioner and these past few days I've been adding enough to detoxify half the ammonia in the tank, just to take the "edge" off, so to speak.  The bottle says the recommended dose will treat 1ppm of ammonia so I've been adding 1/4 of that once a day.  I know that's  going to help keep the fish from feeling the effects of the ammonia but is that going to hurt the cycling process?  Any help is much appreciated!!

 

[allydawn17]

25 gallons is not enough room for 3 adult angelfish, but it should be okay for now (You are going to need 40+ gallons when they get bigger, angelfish can get to about 6 inches). Angelfish also really aren't the best fish to cycle with, trust me I'm doing it right now (1 angel in a 55 gallon). If you are not considering returning these fish and doing a fishless cycle (HIGHLY recommended), then you are in for a lot of work. You will need to test for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate about 2 times a day, and I recommend keeping a journal for your results. In my opinion, you will need to do water changes at least every other day. Some peoples opinion will differ, and they are just as valid, if not better than mine. Prime just detoxifies ammonia in your tank, but it can give false readings and does not actually lower ammonia. (I've still yet to use prime, I'm just going on advice i was given on my post!) There's a great page on TFF about fish-in cycling, you need to read it. 

 

[ficklefins]

allydawn17, I will eventually be down to just a pair, but decided to get three since they are so tiny. I already have a home lined up for the third, someone who wants a larger angelfish, and may be upgrading to a 40 gallon for the pair in a year or two. 
 
 
I do have a little bit of an advantage because I have a very well established 20 gallon.  I forgot to mention that I have some of the filter media from that tank in this tank's filter right now.  Could I be doing even more using the established tank?  I was thinking that everytime I do a water change on this tank I could do a few gallons of water from that tank or something?

 

[ficklefins]

In my opinion, you will need to do water changes at least every other day.

 
How many gallons would you change a day?  Today I did a 25% water change

 

[Ninjouzata]

Adding water from the other tank would do nothing except add nitrates. Use temperature matched, dechlorinated tap water.
IIRC Prime converts the ammonia to a non-toxic form that is harder for the bacteria to use, so it will take longer for them to build up but the fish won't suffer as much.
What is your pH? This helps to know at what amount you want to be changing the water. I don't remember which it is though so hopefully someone with more experience comes along :c

 

[allydawn17]

 

In my opinion, you will need to do water changes at least every other day.

 
How many gallons would you change a day?  Today I did a 25% water change
 

depends on your ammonia reading, but the fact you have media from another tank is really really great! Adding water from the tank probably wont help though. I usually do 25% but some people think you should do more.. 

 

[ficklefins]

Thanks so much! I am so lost as I'm used to fishless cycling.  I did a 25% water change and conditioned with the Prime, checked the ammonia about a half an hour later and it's barely readable, less than .25ppm.  Still no nitrites or nitrates though.  I get the feeling it's going to take a while because I'm using the Prime but I'd rather take two months to cycle safely than risk killing the fish for the sake of speed.

 

[the_lock_man]

 
IIRC Prime converts the ammonia to a non-toxic form that is harder for the bacteria to use,

 
First bit is right, second isn't. The bacteria can use the non-toxic form just as well.
 
 

What is your pH? This helps to know at what amount you want to be changing the water.

 
Yes, please, we'd like to know what pH your water is.

 

[Ninjouzata]

I heard the second bit from TTA. I could easily be remembering wrong though! 

 

[the_lock_man]

I heard the second bit from TTA. I could easily be remembering wrong though! 

 
That's what I always understood was the situation. I haven't bothered to read all the stuff that TTA has, though.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I am not the one who states this, I am merely quoting from Dr Hovanec's site:
 

Do not add ammonia removers to bind the ammonia – overdosing with these products will just increase the cycling time.

from http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling
 
and
 

Lastly, do not add ammonia-removing products as this just complicates the process – let nature take its course and your tank will be ready for fish.

from http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/how-to-start
 
Considering he is the PH.D. who, with his colleagues discovered the strains of bacteria at work in tanks, I trust what he says over what SeaChem says.
 
If one researches nitrification in acid waters you will find that it does occur in them but because the ammonia is all in the NH4 form, the normal NH3 receptors the bacteria have are not useful. However, research has discovered that the bacteria working down at 4.0 pH levels are similar to the ones at higher pH levels but they do have some receptors to allow them to uptake NH4. But they work less efficiently as they are backups and not the primary receptors for NH3 of which there are many more.
 

 
At pH 4, however, ammonia is virtually absent, and its protonated form, ammonium, would require specific ammonium transporters to enter the cell. Such transporters have been found in the genome of N. europaea (11). Their expression would be indispensable if cells had to cope with acidic conditions. De novo synthesis of such transporters, however, might take considerable time and an additional expense of energy for slow-growing cells of AOB. This is in line with the observation made when cells were shifted from neutral pH to around pH 4 conditions in nitrifying reactors containing biofilms or nitrifying flocs: a few weeks were necessary for nitrification rates to recover to original levels, and lower biomass yields were obtained (60). The dilatoriness of this adaptation also explains why pure cultures of AOB typically do not grow instantly in an acidic medium. A slow shift to acidic conditions is a seemingly more successful strategy.
 
Conclusions.
There is no evidence for either the conducive microenvironment hypothesis or the common existence of specific groups of acid-tolerant nitrifying bacteria. Instead, physiological adaptations to low pH could be shown for various AOB and NOB. Under acidic conditions, subgroups of nitrifiers, such as Nitrosospira spp., N. oligotropha, and Nitrospira spp., seem to profit from their strong substrate affinity. The adaptation process is slow and possibly linked to the expression of additional cellular functions, e.g., ammonium transporters.

 

[ficklefins]

My pH is pretty high, probably around 7.8-8.0. I was assured that the angels had been accustomed to the area's tap water at the LFS so I wasn't concerned about doing RO but if that will help with cycling I will definitely do that instead.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The biggest problem with ammonia is in higher pH tanks. The higher the pH the more of the ammonia is in the toxic NH3 form. Once over 8.0 its a real issue and needs to watched much more closely and total ammonia held down more.
 
This calc can tell you how much of your ammonia is in the NH3 form- set salinity to 0 http/www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php
Hold NH3 under .05 ppm for sure and at under .02 is its pretty much safe for anything.

 

[ficklefins]

Thanks!  The ammonia readings have been sitting at anywhere between 0.25 and 0.5 ppm and that calculator tells me that even at 0.5 the NH3 is under 0.05 so I should be good.  The cycle is going very slooow but I would rather it be slow than kill any of my fish!
 
I only have two types of water conditioner and both detoxify ammonia so I will go out tonight and pick up a bottle of something that doesn't.  I think I may still add the prime in half doses, though.  It sounds like Dr. Hovenac says it makes the process take longer but I am more concerned about keeping my fish healthy than cycling as quickly as possible.  Even if takes extra days or weeks, I'd rather be safe than sorry!

 

[AquaPit]

btw, beautiful white Angel you got there!

Hopefully everything will turn out A-O-K!!