Concerned Discus

no sorry I don't, also bought a gravel cleaner the other day so that gets cleaned every day minus the plants which there aren't many of at the moment as I've stocked 4 other tanks from it. the water is currently cloudy but that's from the general overfeeding. 2 more discus have just started eating so that should help. one small discus isn't looking to happy but he was used to tap water so could be the reason. the runt who is about 2cm is swimming around fine and feeding
 
I'll install the internal filter back tomorrow and continue with the daily changes and check the nitrate, ammonia and ph daily, will just post on this thread. I just can't make sense of it.

Also expecting plants delivered tomorrow so will remove every plant and decor and hoover it

also just tested the ph on the 2ft angel breeding tank and thats sitting at about 6.6 as well
 
Just re-test the tap water now for me please. It's got to either be a dodgy test kit of a low KH to have this in two tanks :nod: The latter will need remadying :good:

All the best
Rabbut
 
at least 8.8, I have more tanks upstairs which I can check in the morning
 
How very strange. From here, I'd try to get a KH test done. I bet it reads close to or actually zero, and you'll have your issue. If not, well, I'm stumped if not... :unsure:

All the best
Rabbut
 
just ordered the test kit so time will tell, would a 70% water change be a bad idea
 
ok just done a 50% water change and left it 15min. ph is 7, ammonia is just slightly higher than 0, and nitrate is 5
 
No raised scales, just bloating, so probibly just internal organ failure. There is no treatment for it, but it is not contagious :good:

The pH is very low. Ammonia being raised is not good. Normal fish may tollerate it, but Discus won't for long. You need to nip the ammonia problem in the bud fast :nod: What filtration have you got and what's beeing fed? How often? How much?

A low pH can caurse a bacteria die-back, and an ammonia spike. The Discus you have a tank bred and are not used to that lower pH. That will likley stress them unless brought up slowly to closer to nutral :good: Discus only *need* a low pH while breeding, and even then it's low hardness, not pH, thats the issue :nod: IME, a low ph will only stress tank bred Discus, though wild caught specimins will need it :nod:

All the best
Rabbut


Why do you say the Discus will be stressed from the Ph being low Rabbut? If they were tank raised in a similar Ph it will not cause problems, even if they where slowly acclimated to the Ph they would be fine too, either of could be very possible.

As for the bacteria dying from a Ph of 6.6 I have never heard of this either. Surely other Discus keepers have had their Ph lower then that and not had any problems with bacteria.

ok just done a 50% water change and left it 15min. ph is 7, ammonia is just slightly higher than 0, and nitrate is 5


50% w/c in these situations are fine, as long as the temperature is the same, and the Ph doesn't move. Keep an eye on the Discus. The Ph just swung .4 which isn't really a good thing, a Ph spike can kill fish.


How often are you doing water changes? Are you using any peat or have driftwood in the tank?


As for the Krib, I doubt it is internal organ failure as Rabbut said. More likely he has some sort of internal blockage. Have you seen him pass a bowl movement recently? Try feeding him a green pea. Cooked, then de-shelled, and mash it up. If you like soak it with some blood worms in order to entice him into eating it if he doesn't accept it readily.
 
Fluctuating PH is one of the worst things for discus. As long as its stable you should be fine. Shaz, I sure hope you dont still think your discus were "being motherly". They were all stressed thats why they were all huddled in a corner. They couldnt care less about a krib, they dont even care about their own. You are a bit naive. You need to get your water quality issues sorted fast or you are going to have a tank full of dead discus. If you're ammonia is higher than 0 your tank is not properly cycled. How long has this tank been set up?
 
tank itself has been running over 10years so if it's not cycled by now there is a problem. would I be right in saying over feeding would cause the ammonia though? (as i say chemistry isn't my strong point)

water changes are daily, yesterday i done 50% twice, morning and night which i can continue doing if it will help.

currently there is no bogwood in the tank but there is a bit in the post.

and jim I know they wouldn't have been mothering it, they just looked it. haha they only look after there fry as long as there not hungry.

every breeder has told me they might not feed for the first week so i'm not too concerned at the moment as some are starting to eat.

however if I have a chemical inbalance will it not be my baby one who dies first? as he's swimming around happy.

ammonia and nitrate has just increased in the last few days so it's something i've done that has caused it. which is either removing the internal filter which is going back today, over feeding or water changes (maybe 50% a day isn't enough)
 
ok today's readings are:

ph 6.6
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 5
ammonia: 0

does nitrate also have to be 0? if so what is the best way to reduce it?

think the ph spike last night was just because the water had just been changed and didn't have time to cycle through the filters.
 
Why do you say the Discus will be stressed from the Ph being low Rabbut? If they were tank raised in a similar Ph it will not cause problems, even if they where slowly acclimated to the Ph they would be fine too, either of could be very possible.

As for the bacteria dying from a Ph of 6.6 I have never heard of this either. Surely other Discus keepers have had their Ph lower then that and not had any problems with bacteria.

Most shop bought Discus are Asian bred and raised in a pH between 7 and 7.5. They have never seen the amazon, and it is unlikely that they have ever seen a pH below nutral. Even with careful aclimation, I have seen these guys stress. Work went through an obsession stage where the Discus had to be at pH 6.5. They were constantly stressed and picking up diseases. The boss quickly grew old of the issues with them and asked me for my opinion on them, as I was at the time the only member of staff who'd been able to keep Dicus alive for more than a few months. If a remady could not be found, they were going to stop stocking them. I surgested raising the pH by using just local tap water, and low and behold, all the problems went. I know a lot of people keep Discus at lower pH, and if they are German or Wild stock, it won't do any harm (it's actually needed for wilds as we both know) but the majority of Discus (in the UK at least) are Asian bred and appear to stress IME at a low pH :good: The Germans tend to use softer water with a lower pH.

Bacterial die-off for the most common pair of nitrifying bacteria starts arround 6.0-5.5. Hobbyist test kits aren't that accurate, so it is entirely possible that the pH in the OP's tank is arround this, especially if the kit is no longer "fresh". Below that kind of pH, a different set of filter bacteria form, that are slower growing. If the tank is cycled and the pH crashes, the origional set of filter bacteria die back over a few hours and then a new set of bacteria form in the filter over the course of several months :good: This explains why OTS only tends to show ammonia being present if the syndrome has set-in recently ;)

ok just done a 50% water change and left it 15min. ph is 7, ammonia is just slightly higher than 0, and nitrate is 5


50% w/c in these situations are fine, as long as the temperature is the same, and the Ph doesn't move. Keep an eye on the Discus. The Ph just swung .4 which isn't really a good thing, a Ph spike can kill fish.


How often are you doing water changes? Are you using any peat or have driftwood in the tank?

50% waterchanges are fine so long as the temperature and hardness are similar. I almost always negate pH in acclimatisation and/or waterchanges. It is well documented in scientific litriture that a fish can addapt to a change of pH of upto 2 full points in less than 15 mins. pH shock is short-term and easily overcome. The true issue is a move in KH, as this affects how well a fish can offload ammonia and other toxins within itself (for freshwater fish). I truely believe that "pH shock" is actually hardness shock, mistakenly linked to pH because the hobbyist is not testing for hardness. I would be concerend about sudden changes of KH over changes of pH personally :good: pH is linked to hardness though, so low pH usualy means low KH and hence if you raise the pH you usualy raise the KH as well potentially hitting issues if done too fast. This said, going up a hardness gradiant is better than going down one ;) This also said, the importance of tempearture swings to healthy fish is questionable, as large temperature swings occur in the wlid...

As for the Krib, I doubt it is internal organ failure as Rabbut said. More likely he has some sort of internal blockage. Have you seen him pass a bowl movement recently? Try feeding him a green pea. Cooked, then de-shelled, and mash it up. If you like soak it with some blood worms in order to entice him into eating it if he doesn't accept it readily.

Bloating could be internal blockages, but with lots of frozen food going in, IMO it would be unusual to come across in this situation. DiscusLova's advice is worth a try though :nod:

tank itself has been running over 10years so if it's not cycled by now there is a problem. would I be right in saying over feeding would cause the ammonia though? (as i say chemistry isn't my strong point)

High ammonia could be caursed by overfeeding :nod: This said, in a mature tank, raised ammonia from overfeeding will remady quickly as the filter bacteria multiply to consume the increased load.

water changes are daily, yesterday i done 50% twice, morning and night which i can continue doing if it will help.

currently there is no bogwood in the tank but there is a bit in the post.

and jim I know they wouldn't have been mothering it, they just looked it. haha they only look after there fry as long as there not hungry.

every breeder has told me they might not feed for the first week so i'm not too concerned at the moment as some are starting to eat.

however if I have a chemical inbalance will it not be my baby one who dies first? as he's swimming around happy.

ammonia and nitrate has just increased in the last few days so it's something i've done that has caused it. which is either removing the internal filter which is going back today, over feeding or water changes (maybe 50% a day isn't enough)

While ammonia is high, twice daily waterchanges are the best bet :good: It is not uncommon for Discus to refuse to eat for the first couple of weeks, but if they aren't eating the food you put in, you need to take it out before it can rot. I'd recomend only feeding enough to last a couple of minuites. Start adding little by little untill you can guage how much is actually being taken :good:

In theory, changing chemical charactoristics will upset the larger fish first, as they have a larger bio-mass to change regulatory control over, but this may not the the case in practice...

For now, reduce the ammount you offer at each feed, but spread out more feeds across the day. This will reduce the ammount of food laying arround rotting and prevent the ammonia and nitrate rising :good: Adding back the internal would help the ammonia situation, but long-term I'd be considering another canister. Keep up with your waterchanges and the issue should clear away :good:

Are your fish local bred stock? If so, I guess the breeders use local tap water? Local suppliers are great, as you can see the conditions they are in before purchase and ask all the needed questions about their care upto that point :good:

All the best
Rabbut
 
the stock is a bit of a mixed bag, some from local shop and plymouth discus which I were told was in ph of 6.5 the remainer of the stock is local breeder who just uses plan old tank water and I think from memory said they were in 7.5. waiting on the KH test kit arriving so that should maybe show where the low ph prob is coming from.

must admit after the water change today, introduction of more plant, installing the internal filter again and a piece of bogwood they seem alot happier. prob down to the ammonia drop i guess.

I'll stick with the twice a day changes until things settle
 
My mistake Rabbut, what I meant to say was water chemistry is the same not just Ph. Either a Ph or Gh/Kh swing should be avoided, I wouldn't risk either.

It's funny that you say most Asian bred Discus come from a Ph of 7-7.5 because my work only stocks Discus from a hatchery in China, when we get the fish in the water is normally around 6.5 Ph. We buffer the water down to the same stats they are in and then slowly raise it. :dunno: Maybe the hatchery uses a single water holding tank and they chose to keep the Ph lower for breeding? Their water change or drip systems might be centralized in using this same water source too. Or it could just be their tap water :lol:
 
well have looked at a couple of online shops and they all seem to have there tanks at 6.5 but as above probably for breeding requirements.

also what is your opinion of croaking gourami in with them, i've read gourami should be avoided I'm just getting some and can't decided which tank they should go to. is this fact true or is it just another peice of rubbish i've picked up?
 

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