Complete And Utter Novice Requires Friendly Advice

[jonnytub]

Hi all,

This is a little strange for me posting on a fish forum as I'm more at home answering questions on car forums but so be it. I read somewhere (a long time ago!) that fish can have a beneficial effect for children with autism, something about the movement that calms/interests them. My son is 4 yrs old and has autistic related development delay and wanting to help him as much as possible I went out and made what you guys probably call the original 'newbie mistake'.

I went to my lfs (yes I've read enough posts to know what that means) and asked for a starter kit and a couple of goldfish in the hope that I could simply plonk some water in and allow the fish to temp compensate in the bags inside the tank and bob's your uncle, happy kid staring at fish in tank.

However, that isn't the case, the lfs guys started going on about this that and the other and by the time I got home with all the gear was about ready to take it all back, it seemed like a whole lot of hassle for little reward.

Anyhow, after a little humming and harring, I got round to setting the tank up, i.e. washing the gravel, ornament and fake plants, filled it with water and added the tapsafe from the starter kit I've now got some questions I'm hoping you guys can help me with because my son hasn't left the side of the tank in over two days since putting the fish in, he's completely mesmorised by them and if I'm honest, so am I, which now makes this worth doing and doing properly.

My questions are this:

Having read through a few posts on this excellent forum I take it my initial setup procedure was bang out of whack, what effect can this have on the little guys?

My tank is a 16 litre betta tank with built in filter and lights, after setting up the tank I added a 3rd goldfish due to the fact my eldest sulked (9 yrs old) because we have three kids and should therefore have 3 goldfish. I asked the lfs guy if 3 was too many for the 16 litre tank and he said it was fine, 4 would be too many, 3 should be ok. Was he talking out of his backside or is this ok? The fish measure around 2 inches without taking into account the tails.

24 hours after setting the tank up and with 3 goldfish in the tank seems a little cloudy, I've done some reading on here and to be honest, confused myself. Is this down to good bacteria building up? Wee and poo building up? Not enough aeration? The tank 'cycling'? I got in such a tizzy with the cloudiness I went and purchased a tetra 6 in 1 kit which checks N03, N02, GH, KH, PH and CL2, it all tested as safe and within expected levels, so why the cloudy water?

Feeding wise I was told 3 to 4 flakes per fish twice a day, does this sound right?

I'm also concerned about the filter. Not so much the filter itself but the way in which it re-enters the water, it seems way to smooth to me. I'm probably way of the mark but shouldn't the water re-entry break the surface a little to create bubbles and therefore oxygenate the water? Mine seems to simply pour in as smooth as silk, creating a current but no surface bubbles (try to post vid of this if I can).

So, flame me if u want for asking all the wrong questions in the wrong forum or pointing me to the search function but I could do with some help, my son loves these little guys so I want to make an effort and to be honest, we've only had the tank a couple of days but I can see bigger and better on the horizon because they soothe me too.

I'll try and post some pics and a vid.

Hmm, guess not with the pics and vid, any clues as to how to post them?

 

[fluttermoth]

I don't think anyone's going to flame you, you've just been given very, very poor advice from someone who's more interested in selling you stuff than the welfare of your fish. I'm afraid we see the results of that here all the time.

Ok, lets get the worst bit over with first.

You can't keep goldfish in a 16l tank. They just grow too big and are too messy for a tank of that size. If they're 'fancy' goldfish (the ones with a short, fat body and long double tails) then you could just about keep the three of them in a three foot/100/120l tank. If they're 'normal' goldfish, then they're really only suitable for a pond, as they can grow to a foot long!

The next bad thing is that your tank isn't 'cycled'. That means it doesn't have any of the good bacteria in the filter to eat the fish's wastes, so that will be building up in the water. Until the bacteria have grown, which takes about six weeks, you need to change nearly all the water in the tank every day. Drain it right down, leaving just enough water for the fish to swim upright before refilling, making sure the new water is temperature matched (just roughly, with your hand is fine) and dechlorinated.

If the water stays cloudy, or the fish look or behave at all 'oddly', then you may find that one daily water change isn't enough and you'd have to do another

Doing those big water changes will, hopefully keep the fish safe while you have a think about what you'e going to do. Tbh, I wouldn't keep any fish in a tank that size; it's only suitable for shrimps or snails, IMO, although a single betta would just about be ok, once the tank was cycled.

The cloudy water is due to bacteria, but not the kind you need in your filter, unfortunately! The big water changes should clear it up though.

I'm sorry that's not such good news for you, so apologies for that. I would advise you, assuming you want to keep the goldfish, to have a look around for a second hand three foot tank, which you should be able to pick up quite cheaply.

 

[snazy]

I realise you've got the tank with good intentions but even the kids won't want to see this fish die.
There is so much to mention I don't know where to start.

Goldfish need 40 gallons of water for the first fish and then 10 gallons at least for each additional fish which means in your case they need 230 litres You've got 3 goldfish in a 16 litre tank The shop assistant that told you 3 goldfish will be fine in this tank should have his #16##### kicked

Second, that tank is not cycled yet. A cycled tank means ammonia/nitrItes are 0 at all times and only the nitrAtes are rising, which in turn can be lowered with regular water changes. It takes weeks to cycle and with 3 goldfish in a 16 litre tank first of all the filter would never manage to cope with the waiste, but on theory you need to do water changes every day with dechlorinated water to keep the ammonia less than 0.25 and nitrItes at 0, this even may mean water changes twice a day. It takes weeks for a tank to cycle, so you've got hard work ahead if you want to keep the fish alive. There is a 2nd method, fishless cycle in which pure ammonia is used instead of fish. There is a good read in the beginner's section here how to do it.

When you say the tests are reading fine, what exactly do they measure? I don't see an ammonia test(NH3) in your list, which is probably sky high with the cloudy water your are mentioning.

A short explanation of how the cycle works: In a cycled tank fish produce ammonia(NH3) which in turn gets converts to nitrIte(NO2) by a special type of beneficial bacteria growing on your filter media, which in turn converts to nitrAte(NO3). In a cycled tank this should happen so fast that any time you test the water, ammonia/nitrite should read 0, and only nitrAtes rising which are the final product of the first two. In a non-cycled tank there isn't any beneficial bacteria in the beginning and normally what happens is sky high ammonia for a couple of weeks which need to be lowered to below 0.25 with large water changes(never do 100% at once). Then once the ammonia eating bacteria start naturally converting these to nitrItes(NO2) you get the second stage of the cycling process which is high nitrIte reading for even longer than the ammonia stage. This should be dealt with large water changes again and keep in mind that a nitrIte reading of anything bar 0 is even more toxic to fish. Finally, after battling weeks of water changes, the filter will grow enough bacteria for the poisonous ammonia(NH3) and nitrIte(N02) produced by your fish to be instantly converted to nitrAtes(N03) which is not poisonous but should be kept lower than 40ppm by weekly water changes or what works for you.

Keep in mind that test strips are inaccurate and won't show you the true picture anyway. However, anything above 0 for ammonia and nitrIte is poisonous to fish. The liquid tests are better.

 

[jonnytub]

That's not the news I was hoping for but to be honest was expecting. I'm new (2days old) to this 'fish keeping' business and the joy it's bringing my son makes it worth doing properly.

I appreciate the tank is too small but is it too small for the next six months? Should I plump up now for a bigger tank and get some mature filter to help cycle the tank?

Also (and I do apologise for all the questions), how would I do a big water change? I.e. should I net the fish and stick them in a plastic sterile bowl of tank water, completely drain the tank (or a percentage), refill with tap water and tapsafe and put them back using temp control method, and also how often should I do this? I'm sorry for all the questions, I just don't want this to blow up in my face and end up with dead goldfish. I realise goldfish probably won't float most fish keepers boats but it make's him happy so I appreciate all the advice. Thank you.

Jonny

 

[jonnytub]

That is some excellent advice and information, who knew goldfish could be so troublesome (or worrysome), I'm going to get a larger tank tommorow and do the fishless cycling, in the meantime hopefully I can keep up with the big water changes, I was thinking something along the lines of this:

Do big water changes daily to keep Alvin, Simon and Theodore healthy until the big tank is ready to accept them (yes, i know, I just named my fish but the kids had it done already).

Once the new tank is cycled (I'm thinking around 18" deep x 4 foot wide x 18" high for the new tank which would fit perfectly in our alcove) could I add more fish of different varieties or is it best sticking with a goldfish only tank?

 

[fluttermoth]

No, they can't stay in that tank for six months. Like children, fish do most of their growing early on in their lives so they do need an upgrade, ASAP. If you can get hold of some mature media that would really, really help.

Netting fish out and totally cleaning the tank is not advisable. Just syphon as much water out as you can (obviously don't leave the fish flapping around!) before refilling with dechlorinated water. You'll need to do that at least once every day, without fail, as the amount of waste produced by three goldfish will turn the water toxic very rapidly. It's good that you can test the water, but it doesn't look like your strips test for ammonia, which is what will be making your fish sick before anything else. If you can get hold of an ammonia test, that would be helpful, but I can't imagine you're going to be able to skip daily water changes.

I'd just like to say, I personally love goldfish, but I have them in a pond, not a tank. If they are normal goldfish, that's the place for them; fancy ones can't live outside during the winter in this country, so need to be in a decent sized tank.

Don't worry about asking a lot of questions; we're all here to help

Edit; Just to answer your latest post; your fish will be a lot better off in the bigger tank. Don't try and do a fishless cycle in it; your goldies need out of that 16l ASAP and you might as well fish-in cycle in the larger tank as the 16l.

Goldfish are best kept in a species only tank; other fish that like the same temperature either need specialist set ups (like hillstream loach, commonly called butterfly or Hong Kong plecs in fish shops) or are too small (like zebra danios and white cloud mountain minnows) and will get eaten by the goldies when they get big enough.

 

[Questions?]

if you want the goldfish to suffer, keep them in the 16l liter tank, that stunts there growth, and they die at an early age. If i wer you i would just put a betta in the tank, or a couple of cory catfish(if there is good filtration i think you could get away with 3 pygmy corys). Also kio is just a fancy term for goldfish at thier full grown size.

oops i mean koi

but im glad you have good intentions, and fish keeping is a great hobby

 

[snazy]

By "Big water change" I mean about 75% at a time, sometimes even slightly more than that but this is normally done only during "cycling a tank". Afterwards, when the tank is cycled, never change more than 50% water at a time and once a month or two months you just need to wash the filter media in tank water, never in tap water as it will kill the beneficial bacteria. Never net the fish out or clean your tank with soap or anything bar water or change the filter cartridges/media/sponges(they last for years). Just drain enough water with a siphon that can be purchased in a fish shop and youtube has plenty of videos how to do it(a scoop would do now if you don't have a siphon but it's easier to get the fish poo from the gravel with a siphon), and leave enough water for the fish to swim upright trying to cause as little stress as possible. Don't forget to dechlorinate the water before putting it in.

As for the amount of water you need to change everyday during cycle, keep in mind the following:
%
Let's say you test the water and it reads 1ppm ammonia or nitrIte. If you do a 75% water change providing that the tap water doesn't naturally have ammonia(some do), then you are technically reducing the ammonia not to 0, but to 0.25%. If you want it as close to 0 as possible, which you should be aiming at in order to keep the fish alive, then you need to do another 50% water change straight away, which will bring the ammonia down to 0.125 and this is livable for a while. This is called sometimes two back to back water changes as a 100% water change although easier to bring the toxic ammonia and nitrIte levels to 0, is actually highly stressing for the fish.

Same example, if your test reads 2ppm ammonia, doing a 50% water change would only bring down the ammonia to 1ppm. Then if you do a second 50% water change, the ammonia should be down from 1ppm to 0.50ppm and so on. A few hours later in the beginning of a cycle, the levels creep up again.

This 16 litre tank is not suitable for absolutely anything. Some people keep one betta fish in them but I'd say that's cruel for any fish. If you can get a bigger tank and mature filter(or filter media you can stick in your own filter) than that would be way better. Why not keep a tropical tank instead(by tropical I mean fish that need warm water and therefore a heater as well)? You still need a bigger tank but there are many types of tropicals that don't grow big and don't need huge tanks. And you can certainly keep more than 3 fish for the kids.

 

[fluttermoth]

if you want the goldfish to suffer, keep them in the 16l liter tank, that stunts there growth, and they die at an early age. If i wer you i would just put a betta in the tank, or a couple of cory catfish(if there is good filtration i think you could get away with 3 pygmy corys). Also kio is just a fancy term for goldfish at thier full grown size.

oops i mean koi

but im glad you have good intentions, and fish keeping is a great hobby

There's no need to e so harsh, bud. The guy's only gone by what he shop told him, and newcomers expect to be given good advice in fish shops; they ought to know what they're on about, after all. Corydoras catfish also get too large for a 16l and need to be kept in groups of at least six; most species would also need a heater.

Just to go off topic for a second, koi are a different species of carp; Cyprinus carpio, rather than Carassius auratus auratus which is the goldfish, although they are closely related and can hybridise.

 

[Questions?]

i didnt mean to be harsh, i know that shop keepers try to get you to buy there fish, even if you dont have the resources for them, anyways i dont know a lot about goldfish so sorry for the mistake
also pygmy cory(corydoras pygmaeus cna have 6 in a 5 US gallon tank, so 3 or 4 should be fine in a 16l tank, they don;t usually even grow to be 1" most top out at about 1/2" or 3/4"

 

[jonnytub]

And there you go, the flame is on.

I'm new to this what do you want I'm going to buy a larger tank tommorow, hopefully I'll get a mature filter the day after. What is it with newbies asking these questions and getting flamed straight away for doing things they've been told is right but turns out wrong. I'm in the right place to get my questions answered but not made to feel welcome.

Thanks 'Question's' for the warm welcome, I guess I shouldn't have expected anything more....

New fish forum tommorow??? definitely.....

 

[4seasons]

And there you go, the flame is on.

I'm new to this what do you want I'm going to buy a larger tank tommorow, hopefully I'll get a mature filter the day after. What is it with newbies asking these questions and getting flamed straight away for doing things they've been told is right but turns out wrong. I'm in the right place to get my questions answered but not made to feel welcome.

Thanks 'Question's' for the warm welcome, I guess I shouldn't have expected anything more....

New fish forum tommorow??? definitely.....

There is a few guys that know it all on any forum. As far as fish keeping you fell into the same trap that many of us did. Bad advice from the LFS kills lots of fish and confuses all new to the hobby. You are on the right track here. I as well as many others here got started the same way that you did. My first 3 fish died and then I started getting good advice here. Almost everything above is spot on. The only thing I really have to add is you are now in a fish-in cycle and you should check this thread out on how to keep your fish alive: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/224306-fish-in-cycling/

 

[Questions?]

i am truly sorry
i am just mad that the people at pet stores usually just want your money and care nothing about how the fish will feel. I fell for the same thing a few years back, but everyone is still learning, and i have a long way to go. But i just wanted to say i am sorry.

 

[snazy]

I wouldn't take any offence really of any harsh comments. It's a forum and it's hard to express yourself in writing without someone finding it a bit overboard. You know, for most type of animals you buy on an impulse it's not a live or death matter if you don't know what to do as most of them like cats, dogs, hamsters, etc.. can at least breathe air, eat and poo from the first moment, even if locked in a tiny cage. For a fish in an uncycled tank this means a sure death and some of us get "overexcited" with the comments and we can probably paraphraze ourselves a bit better than that. But I doubt it it's intentional or personal though. Good luck with the new challenge. You'll soon be in love with the hobby

 

[jonnytub]

Apology accepted. The lfs guy seemed flaky to begin with which is why I came here.

I'm prepared to accept a huge error of judgement on my part, I should have done my research first but you do expect the lfs to offer first class advice, it turns out their backsides should resemble that of my goldfish's mouths when selling.

I'm going to go the extra mile with these goldfish and treat them to a new large home, I've just got off the phone with an aunty who is going to donate some mature medium whilst taking in my 3 chipmunks for a couple of months (she's an old pro but family woes stopped me asking her for initial advice)so I can mature my tank properly. I know this sounds like daft talk but it's worth it watching my son trace them across the tank, engrossed.

With all that in mind, I may still use the small tank for some snails but I'm still worried about aeration, the filtered water doesn't seem to break the surface even though there are 8 streams of water, is the water level too high