Common Goldfish Problem

[szatek]

Dear All,

I registered on this forum as I've run out of ideas on how to help my goldfish. I hope someone will be able to help me. Here are details about my tank:

Location: United Kingdom
Tank size: 60 litres
pH: 7.0
ammonia: don't have this reading
nitrite: 0ppm
nitrate: 80ppm
kH: 240ppm
gH: 180ppm
tank temp: 25 C

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior): To explain the symptoms I really need to tell the story from the beginning. I will try to make it as short as possible. My adventure with fish started in September 2009. My wife's colleague brought a small goldfish to work in a glass. She said she had to get rid of her and was thinking about flushing it in the toilet. My wife couldn't let it happen and took the fish home. On her way she bought a bowl. Since very beginning the fish had red gills. I think it was kept in very bad conditions. After a week I decided to buy proper tank as I couldn't stand watching that fish swimming around in a small bowl. Everything was fine and we bought second common goldfish in December 2009. We were told that 60litres tank is too small for more than two fish so I stick with it. Some problems started in January 2010 with the fish we got initially. It started swimming in a very strange way (head down). After some more observation I noticed that it's much worse after feeding in the morning and usually gets better in the evenings. The fish is completely fine just before feeding. It's just as if my wish kept swallowing air with the food which stays in its stomach. Before those symptoms appeared I was feeding both fish twice a day. I then was told to reduce the amount of food so I started feeding them only once a day which is happening until today. Nothing has changed so I started reading about fish illnesses and was looking for more advice. I was told that the problem might be related with swimbladder. I bought INTERPET Swimbladder Treatment - Advanced Aquatic Science - Fish Health Treatment 13. As shown on the leaflet I used 3ml for the whole tank. I repeated the treatment on days four, eight and twelve. As far as I could see it helped just slightly. After couple of days it was back to really bad. The fish was swimming almost vertically. I repeated whole treatment again but after couple of days it was back to as it was before. I then tried using INTERPET Anti Internal Bacteria - Advanced Aquatic Science - Fish Health Treatment 9 as I though it might be some general infection. I used that treatment once but it hasn't changed anything. The situation now is that the fish still swims in a strange way almost all day long. Additionally it started loosing colour near eyes and forehead. It looks as it had glasses. Please find attached pictures. Is there any hope for my fish ?

Volume and Frequency of water changes: I change about 20litres ever one or two weeks.

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: I use Nutrafin Aqua Plus Tap Water Conditioner before I add new water.

Tank inhabitants: Two common goldfish

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): Two or three decoration changes within last year.

Exposure to chemicals: I don't think there is any.

Tank Age (How long the tank has been up and running): Almost 9 months.

Recent Events in the tank (things such as algea blooms, illnesses.. etc.. that have been treated recently): I keep getting algea blooms every now and again. If it gets really bad I remove all decoration and use toothbrush to remove algeas. I was thinking about getting algea eater but I was told two fish in 60 litres tank is maximum. I was thinking about buying some Algea Away treatment but I was worried I put too much chemicals into my tank.

The type and size of your filtration: Elite Stingray 15. I had to remove charcoal filters as I was using medicines so it's only sponge filters.

Digital photo (include if possible): I attach three photos of the whole tank and two of the sick fish. It's the gold one. Here are the links:

http/img97.imageshack.us/i/img6161o.jpg/
http/img687.imageshack.us/i/img6163n.jpg/
http/img217.imageshack.us/i/img6162t.jpg/

Any help much appreciated.

Best regards,
Marcin

 

[WILDER]

For two common goldfish you need at least a 35 gallon tank.
Then you would also need a 70 gallon filter, due to goldfish being massive waste producers.

Swim bladder is caused by bad water quality, to many dried foods, unstable diet, bacterial infection of the swim bladder, injury, birth defect, parasites, unstable temp.

To reduce the nitrate reading.
Water changes.
Rinse one of your sponges in old tank water.
Gravel vac.

With the tank being overstocked you need to be maintaining it twice a week.

Iprove the fish diet with some frozen foods like brime shrimp, and daphnia.
Also introduce some green veg into there diet.

If you want to keep the goldfish I would suggest you upgrade your tank.
As it's far to small, and filteration not adequate for these type of fish.

 

[Anna Robinson]

The fish was probably swallowing air with its food or eating it before it had fully soaked up the water, which is quite common, and this made it buoyant. Try sinking the food by plunging it just below the water surface when you feed rather than sprinkling it on top, so that it is fully wetted and the fish cannot swallow air when taking it in.

I would stop adding strong medications - most medications have side effects and should only be used if you are sure you need them, in which case the side effects are worth it. It's hard to tell for certain, but I think your fish simply has translucent gill plates, which is why you can see the bright red gills showing through. The colour change over its face could be natural (goldfish are prone to this) or it could be a response to the stress of the chemical treatments.

I would go back to feeding twice a day, and as Wilder says try varying the diet - adding chopped up shelled peas is a favourite remedy for fish prone to buoyancy problems. A bigger tank should definitely be a priority too.

 

[szatek]

Dear All,

First of all thank you for professional and fast reply. I knew I will find help I needed on this forum.

I definitely want to keep both fish so I will do my best to make them happy. My wife would be very sad if we had to give any of the fish away. Unfortunately I cannot afford to get a new tank now but I will definitely try to get one in next couple of months. I'm thinking about Fluval Roma 200. I could then transform my current tank into salwater aquarium. I wasn't aware of the fact that I need such a big tank for two fish. I read somewhere that you need approximately 1 gallon of water for every 1 inch of fish body or something to that matter.

Yesterday I ordered new filter for my tank (Fluval U2). I read a bit about it and it seems it's one of the best internal filters on the market. It's doing 400 litres per hour so hopefully that should be enough for this tank.

I cannot be maintaining the tank twice a week simply because of lack of time. Do you think changing bigger amount of water once a week should be enough ?

Lastly I've got couple of quick questions about the food. At the moment I've got Red Mosquito Larves in the fridge which I bought couple of months ago. I was told to give it to fish once a week as a treat. Would it be a good idea to switch to peas, shrimps and daphnia only ? Can you suggest any brands for this type of food ? Usually I go to Maidenhead Aquatics in Wembley to get food, decoration, etc. Do you know any other shops around west London ? I don't think you can buy this type of food online as it's frozen isn't it ?

Best regards,
Marcin

 

[Jenste]

the 1 gallon to 1 inch is pretty much rubbish for anything other than slim bodied fish like tetras....
and you need to plan for the inches your fish is capable to growing to, not what their body is now...goldfish are massive fish both bulk and lengthwise.

think of it this way....
two 5" goldfish would produce MUCH more waste and demand MUCH more room than ten 1" tetras, wouldn't they? imagine those same two goldfish in a ten gallon tank next to those same tetras in a separate ten gallon tank - - - which one looks more acceptable?

the 1 gallon to 1 inch rule is a gimmick mostly used by fish stores to sell more fish to an unsuitable tank, knowing that once the fish start growing that customer will be back buying a new tank...

its all about profit to them sadly

your on the right path though! many wouldn't even both to start looking for help and answers until it was far too late!!

 

[szatek]

You are absolutely right Jenste. I guess when it comes to fish keeping you should not be using mathematics.

The only thing that worries me about 200 litres tank is the size of it. I have to make some measurements to see if I can fit it into my one bedroom flat. The current one (60 litres) doesn't take that much space. But if I want to make those fish happy I need to move some stuff around.

Edit:
I just realised that Wilder was talking about 35 US Gallons not Imperial Gallons so I don't actually need 200 litres tank. (35 gallons x 3.78 = 130 litres)

 

[szatek]

Hi All,

Just a quick one. I've got the new Fluval U2 filter. What is the best practice for swapping filters ? I assume I need to put the new but not remove the old one until bacterias appear in the new one. Is that correct ? I want to upgrade filtration today.

Thank you,
Marcin

 

[Jenste]

you could run both at the same time, or you could take all the filter cartridges out of the old one and "seed" the new filter by putting them in along with the new cartridges it won't give you a perfect instant, but pretty darn close....you would still be losing out on the bacteria in the pipings and housing of the old filter....but it will definitely get the new one on its way faster!


or you could leave both running, and take half of the filter media out of the old one and into the new one until you feel comfortable and your readings stay level

 

[coldcazzie]

I personally don't have experience with goldfish, but I've a friend who has had goldfish for many years, and the experience with them has been that goldfish can and will change colour - but only if it's lighter than their original colour. So if you've 3 white fish and 1 gold, the gold one will change its colour to being white, but if you've one gold and 3 black the gold can't change to being black. However, the black ones could change to being gold. So the colour change is probably nothing to worry about

 

[szatek]

Hi Coldcazzie,

That's a very interesting piece of information. I've got one gold and one silver goldfish. The gold changes colour which might explain it. I hope it's not because I treated them with medicines though. Last thing I want is to harm my fish.

Best regards,
Marcin

 

[coldcazzie]

It might be a survival thing - if you're the same colour as all your friends then overall you've less chance of being the one who gets eaten...works for zebras and wildebeest, and also shoaling fish like tetras so why not goldfish too?! And if, by some fluke you happen to be descended from a line of goldfish that were black, but all your friends are gold, it makes sense to be the same colour as them. After all - they dont know they're in a tank and the only way they'd be eaten is an unfortunate incident with a cat...!

 

[szatek]

Dear All,

Great news. The fish which had problems with swimming is much better now. For last couple of days I give them Red Mosquito Larves for breakfast and chopped up frozen peas for dinner. Swimming disorder is almost gone. I just hope it's not a temporary behaviour.

I know it might sound a bit odd but they also look much happier now.

I also noticed that another problem has gone away which I wasn't aware of. Whenever they were getting food in the mornings they started a fight. I though it's because they were bullies but I think they were simply hungry. There are no fights since I changed the diet.

I also installed that new Fluval U2 filter and changed the decoration layout according to "Basics In Aquascaping" rules I found on this forum. I know they should be used with regards to live plants but my tank looks much better now. I attach files below. Please forgive me bad quality of the pictures. I need to read the article about making better pictures. I saw it somewhere on this forum as well.

I just got one question about filter/light/bubbles working hours. I read somewhere that I should have light on for 10 hours a day. As for bubbles and filter I used to switch them off over night but I read I should keep them running all the time. Can someone please confirm ? I'm worried that fish will not get enough sleep because of the current. I read that common goldfish don't like when the current is too strong.

On Sunday I'm going to a fish shop to get a proper Water Test Kit to see if there is no Ammonia /Nitrite/Nitrate spikes after I changed the filter. I also hope that algeas will reduce thanks to that filter. I'm planning to change about 40% of water every week to keep good water quality. Hopefully I will get a bigger tank in next couple of months. My wife might even agree on the 200 litres tank. The only condition is it needs to be plant tank. I'm not sure if it's going to work with two common goldfish as they apparently love plants but I will still give it a go.

Thank you very much for all your help. I will definitely let you know if there is something wrong and I will definitely be asking for more help while setting up the new tank.

http/img641.imageshack.us/i/img6170j.jpg/
http/img51.imageshack.us/i/img6173s.jpg/

Best regards,
Marcin

PS. Coldcazzie, Luckily I don't have a cat.

 

[Jenste]

Your filters bacteria dies in just a few short hours when u turn it off becasuse the bacteria starve.....never turen a filter off for more than a short while....as for goldfish not liking current....they are a pond fish....they are fine with standard currents produced by your filter.....

If ur wife does go for the upgrade, congrats! Would u get another goldfish hehe

 

[szatek]

I will make sure that the filter stays on all the time from now on.

If we upgrade the tank to 200 litres I would like to get some other fish to add some variety to the tank but I read that not many fish go along well with common goldfish as they can be bullies. I might be wrong as with everything I though I knew about fish keeping. It's amazing by the way how much you can learn over just few days. You just need good source of knowledge.

 

[Jenste]

aside from the fact that goldfish are considered bullies (mostly this implies to their pig-ish nature when it comes to feeding, other fish may not get their share of the food), their cooler temperature requirements reduces the number of species you can keep.

even with in the carp (goldfish) family you are limited....species such as black moor, bubble/telescope eyes should not be kept with faster comet varieties due to their poor vision hindering them during feeding time.