Cichlids In The Usa?

[WildernessLofts]

however, sunfish are pretty close in terms of behavior to cichlids. like most wild-caughts, they typically need very clean water and can be difficult to feed. if you do decide to keep some NA sunfish, then be sure to carefully research max. sizes and temperature requirements. (trying to keep true coldwater fish above 70 degF is generally pointless.)

Let me correct this post as your information is wrong.
They don't need very clean water, they are used to dirty lake water and thats whats recommended for them when you first bring them home, and then gradually adding tap water. NA sunfish are easy to keep, I had a bluegill for 2 years as a kid in a 15-20g tank, and it was around 6-8 inches fed on worms and floating pellets from the moment we brought it home. The largest of the sunfish reach a max of around 12 inches, although this is unlikely and most sunfish will stay around 8-10". Temperature requirements = zero. Many people have kept sunfish at temps as high as 80 deg F with tropical fish and had no problems with them. It has a point and they will generally do just fine.

however, sunfish are pretty close in terms of behavior to cichlids. like most wild-caughts, they typically need very clean water and can be difficult to feed. if you do decide to keep some NA sunfish, then be sure to carefully research max. sizes and temperature requirements. (trying to keep true coldwater fish above 70 degF is generally pointless.)

Native fish are nutso!

Bluegills and the green sunfish (L. cyanellus) are 2 of the baddest fish I've ever had. I've seen smallmouth bass rule tanks and keep every other fish in the corners including largemouth bass twice his size. I've never had a smallmouth but if I ever get rich and can afford a tank that size I'll sure give it a try.

If you do go natives, make sure to either go with a single fish, or several fish in a larger tank, much like african cichlids. Even then you might get a particularly feisty fish who might need a whooping. I had a 75g planned out with 6 sunfish and a madtom catfish, simply to keep aggression down.
(Before anyone says thats overstocking and yells at me, I got this information from native fish keepers who said this is fine, NA fish are not tropicals.)

If you want to keep sunfish and would like to find some nice colorful ones, give me a PM I can get you a link to some people who can collect some very nice specimens for only the cost of shipping. Of course if you have any questions feel free to ask.

Thanks for that info.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

however, sunfish are pretty close in terms of behavior to cichlids. like most wild-caughts, they typically need very clean water and can be difficult to feed. if you do decide to keep some NA sunfish, then be sure to carefully research max. sizes and temperature requirements. (trying to keep true coldwater fish above 70 degF is generally pointless.)

Let me correct this post as your information is wrong.
They don't need very clean water, they are used to dirty lake water and thats whats recommended for them when you first bring them home, and then gradually adding tap water. NA sunfish are easy to keep, I had a bluegill for 2 years as a kid in a 15-20g tank, and it was around 6-8 inches fed on worms and floating pellets from the moment we brought it home. The largest of the sunfish reach a max of around 12 inches, although this is unlikely and most sunfish will stay around 8-10". Temperature requirements = zero. Many people have kept sunfish at temps as high as 80 deg F with tropical fish and had no problems with them. It has a point and they will generally do just fine.

ok, let's take this point by point.

(1) even "dirty" lake water is not full of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. i'm sorry, i should have specified that by "clean" i meant "water with low waste levels" not "sparkling"

(2) you do realize that the sunfish group is about as large and diverse as the cichlid group, right? and that what is true for a blue gill may or may not be true for a pygmy sunfish? beyond temperament (fiesty) and diet (carnivorous/omnivorous), you really can't make many generalizations.

(3) the temperature requirements item is a lie. pure and simple. if you have a fish that is native to Upstate New York and you keep it in an 80 degree tank year-round, then it is not going to do fine. at worst, it's going to sicken and die. at best, it will just look off-color all the time. (also, if the fish actually does do OK at 80 deg, then it's not a true coldwater fish. this can be discovered by doing some research into the specific needs of the species.)

you are right, however, to start keeping the fish in collected water and slowly transition it to tap conditions. the very best thing to do when keeping a wild-caught fish is try to match it's natural water conditions. which is where conducting thorough research again comes into play. fortunately, there is a quiet market for certain NA native fish. this is good news because that means you have a number of people that have already done the research for you i'd suggest starting to look at the pygmy sunfishes (a generic common name which includes several species from a number of locations). i know that at least one guy sells some stunning stripey pygmies on aquabid periodically.

of course, i'm not going to argue with just assuming that all sunfish will reach 12" and keeping them in a 75g tank! but it might be more effective to just look around on fishbase once you have a decent idea of what the fish is.

 

[t1tanrush]

Rather than type at the end, I'll just insert in with red.

however, sunfish are pretty close in terms of behavior to cichlids. like most wild-caughts, they typically need very clean water and can be difficult to feed. if you do decide to keep some NA sunfish, then be sure to carefully research max. sizes and temperature requirements. (trying to keep true coldwater fish above 70 degF is generally pointless.)

Let me correct this post as your information is wrong.
They don't need very clean water, they are used to dirty lake water and thats whats recommended for them when you first bring them home, and then gradually adding tap water. NA sunfish are easy to keep, I had a bluegill for 2 years as a kid in a 15-20g tank, and it was around 6-8 inches fed on worms and floating pellets from the moment we brought it home. The largest of the sunfish reach a max of around 12 inches, although this is unlikely and most sunfish will stay around 8-10". Temperature requirements = zero. Many people have kept sunfish at temps as high as 80 deg F with tropical fish and had no problems with them. It has a point and they will generally do just fine.

ok, let's take this point by point.

(1) even "dirty" lake water is not full of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. i'm sorry, i should have specified that by "clean" i meant "water with low waste levels" not "sparkling"
Don't all fish need that water, by saying that you made them out to be harder to keep and need even cleaner water.
(2) you do realize that the sunfish group is about as large and diverse as the cichlid group, right? and that what is true for a blue gill may or may not be true for a pygmy sunfish? beyond temperament (fiesty) and diet (carnivorous/omnivorous), you really can't make many generalizations.
Yes I can.
(3) the temperature requirements item is a lie. pure and simple. if you have a fish that is native to Upstate New York and you keep it in an 80 degree tank year-round, then it is not going to do fine. at worst, it's going to sicken and die. at best, it will just look off-color all the time. (also, if the fish actually does do OK at 80 deg, then it's not a true coldwater fish. this can be discovered by doing some research into the specific needs of the species.)
You can think that all you want, however, I've spoken to several native keepers because I wanted CA cichlids and sunfish together. Sure tossing it into an 80F tank isn't the best, but a slow transition will allow this fish to live at higher temps without problems. The sunfish I'll be getting are from the NE, and I've been told they will do fine at higher temps. Hell many ponds/lakes where they live in the south are warm, not to mention many people have caught bluegill to keep with their oscars at the oscars temp. I guess there really are no " true " coldwater fish then?
you are right, however, to start keeping the fish in collected water and slowly transition it to tap conditions. the very best thing to do when keeping a wild-caught fish is try to match it's natural water conditions. which is where conducting thorough research again comes into play. fortunately, there is a quiet market for certain NA native fish. this is good news because that means you have a number of people that have already done the research for you i'd suggest starting to look at the pygmy sunfishes (a generic common name which includes several species from a number of locations). i know that at least one guy sells some stunning stripey pygmies on aquabid periodically.
I researched them, but I'd rather have the larger more aggressive sunfish. I can get them cheap/free from several sources. Hopefully the larger sunfish will become more popular. A nice longear is a gorgeous fish rivaling any tropical.
of course, i'm not going to argue with just assuming that all sunfish will reach 12" and keeping them in a 75g tank! but it might be more effective to just look around on fishbase once you have a decent idea of what the fish is.
I instead of looking on fishbase, talked with several native fish keepers. I'd trust the people who keep these fish and research them far more than fishbase or any internet site.

I instead of looking on fishbase, talked with several native fish keepers. I'd trust the people who keep these fish and research them far more than fishbase or any internet site.

 

[bluetrane2028]

I know this topic is old, but I just wanted to share some experiences I had in my *much* younger days keeping a Red Breasted Sunfish (from a local lake in Pennsylvania) in a 20gal tank.

If he was picky about water conditions, we never knew about it. We did not own a water testing kit, and the LFS didn't offer that service either. I was only about 10 years old, so my Dad did most of the maintenance, and I only remember the gravel vac coming out once every two months(!). We had some massive filter on the back of it, though, perhaps it was the difference needed (NO HEATER also, these guys can tolerate PA winters). We kept just the sunfish in the 20(high, but he really should have had a long), and fed him a diet of earthworms and feeder goldfish, along with any household bug we happened to find. In short, if it's living, he'd eat it. We got the substrate from the stream that feeds the lake (small river rock type gravel), and set up a few rocks in a way that resembled the mathematical sign for Pi. He would sit under that and wait for food to come by. He was extremely aggressive, and if I put my finger on the tank glass he'd try to strike it (remember, I was only 10). We had to release the fish when it could no longer turn around (this was after a couple years, and it was about a foot long at that time), and really we should have done it a long time before that. That was the last fish my parents kept, and I didn't get back into fish until I was in college. However, it was an amazing experience, he had way better coloration than anything else I've ever had. As soon as I have the space for it, I want to try keeping a group of sunfish, wild caught as young as possible (the type that are so gullible they'll strike at a bare hook), and then release whatever fish don't get along, hopefully getting down to 2-4.

To do that right, it'll probably require a 75 at minimum, so I'll probably have to wait a couple of years.

These guys are awesome, and once I've had a go at it as an adult, I'll be sure to open the discussion up again.