Chipped Aquarium

[HappyGeorge]

Hi guys

Was hoping that I would be posting pictures of my new aquarium and starting a set up journal but unfortunately the ex display aquarium I ordered was delivered pretty dirty so spent most of today methodically cleaning. After cleaning one end panel and scrubbing at a stubborn mark it turns out to be a chip (definately an old one - not done in transit I don't think or by me.

The chip is about 10mm long and about a mm wide almost as if a screwdriver had been struck against the side the chip is deep enough to pick at with your fingernail but does not appear to go right through. It is a Rena aqualife 450 with 10mm glass.

Question is if the seller offers to fund a repair what is required and what do you think the risk of testing the crack is? Should I take it outside and fill it? Or should I insist on a replacement? There are no problems as it was bought on a credit card so its fully covered.

I have had so much hassle this is the third aquarium I have tried to purchase first was double sold and the second was broken during packing and am beginning to think someone up there is trying to tell me something? Maybe I should give up on this hobby now!

 

[keenonfish]

Definitely get the tank replaced if you cannot gauge the depth of scratch or chip. I just buffed some very visible scratches out of my Juwel 180 6mm glass the scratches could just about be felt with my nail if I hadn't been able to gauge I would not have bothered and scrapped the thing.

Fixing tanks isn't like car windscreens the glass is under a lot of pressure and won't need much to significantly weaken it.

 

[rabbut]

The deapth of the crack and placement will depend on it's significance on the tanks long-term wellbeing If it is on the base or lower down, it could potentialy caurse the whole pane to split when filled, instantly or after a while If it is higher up, it won't make much difference

Could you post pics?

If you get the choice, I'd push for a replacement if possible, but being ex-display, you cannot claim for damage unless the crack could compromise the strength of the tank Most companies selling ex-display will state that some minor marks and scratches may be present to cover themselves in this type of scenario, and enable them to block a charge-back. Realy, with ex-display, you want to view before you buy and be 100% certain that the tank is in satisfatory nick before you put down any cash If that crack won't affect the strength of the pane, you have no leg to stand on unless there is a money-back guarrentee. With internet orders, this is 7 days unless there is a get out clause (I think thats the legal minimum grace time, you want to double check though before you try to use it as leverage) but it varies in-store

All the best
Rabbut

 

[malakye]

Ex displays are usually sold as seen so no replacements are usually offered. Its usually a given that ex displays will have some damage on them and buyers should inspect the goods before hand. I wouldnt be so sure your credit card will keep you safe on this purchase, you bought it knowing it was ex display so technically you took the risk. You might not have a leg to stand on, ex displays are not usually covered by a grace period either, thats not just with tanks but most items.
You should still ask and see what they say though.

 

[HappyGeorge]

Thanks guys

The chip appears to be fairly shallow I can feel the bottom of it so its only probably a mm or so deep and a mm wide but 10mm long and it is 140mm up on a 650mm tank and approx halfway between front and back on the outside of the right hand panel. Have put a black backing in the tank and shone a torch across it and can see its reflection from the inside face of the glass.

I would rather keep it if feasible as it was a complete package including extra filters - backgrounds - starter kits etc etc and was £550 for a Rena aqualife 450 a fluval fx5 and U4 heaters lights the works and given the delivery issue of shifting a 110kg tank its hassle I could do without.
The actual money back situation is not a problem was bought on a credit card and if the aquarium is not able to safely hold water then it is not "fit for purpose". This phrase basically covers everything you ever buy if it doesn't do its job then you get your money back ex-display or not you just have to know your rights and not back down. No company no matter what they choose to say can avoid it. If you buy shoes and they fall apart after 2 weeks then go get your money back and if an Aquarium doesnt hold water its not an aquarium and as such can't be sold as one so you get your money back. Mastercard are happy to debit them and credit me. The store then have to take me to court should they wish too - luckily I have photos of tank before cleaning and my CCTV system can be viewed to track the delivery of the tank and its Installation and the guy who helped me move it is a Police Officer so court would be interesting.

Of course I could take it outside and fill it up and see what happens?

 

[rabbut]

Sounds like a deap crack to me, and I certainly would not fill it for the first time indoors for fear of the consiquence

If the tank was sold as seen, you don't have a leg to stand on under "fit for porpose" part. If it was sold as seen, and you bought it, you are seen as accepting this term as a legal contract, that superseeds your right for "fit for purpose" protection, as you agreed to wavier that agreement with your credit card company with the new purchase contract. I suspect that if you attempted the charge-back the company you bought from, you would be refused the transaction by your card company and told to take them to small claims court over the issue if you wanted to try get your money back Indeed, court would be interesting, and may leave you liable for damages and/or costs

If the pane breaks, even under CCTV, you still would not be able to prove anything in court, as with a 10g tank, a single little grain of sand can break the tank, and you cannot see that detail on most CCTV cameras, so the company you bought from has a strong defence there by arguing that you did not check the surface was flat and clean of all dirt e.t.c. before you filled the tank. Before you say it isn't possible, I know it is as I have been there and done that

All the best
Rabbut

 

[HappyGeorge]

Thanks but think there are a few wires crossed.

I haven't filled the tank the damage was found whilst cleaning prior to use - the dirt masked it.

I didn't see the tank was sold it as ex-display having had it confirmed that there were no significant marks or scratches by email.

My reference to CCTV was in conjunction with prooving that the end damaged was delivered to me and transported by me through my property with that end of the tank protected thus giving good evidence that it was damaged prior to being packaged - and no you're right Rabbut the CCTV required for observation of the damage would be fairly impressive (wouldn't want to build the waterproof housing and bracket for that one). Also luckily I took some photos in RAW format at about 16 mega pixel prior to cleaning for my planned blog and these do show the area of the mark covered with muck and make good viewing when overlayed with one of it clean on photoshop.

Wouldn't want anyone reading this to underestimate their rights in situations like this - may not know much about fish yet but know my law so anyone that may have had problems may want to check this out.

Consumer info

It makes clear all the points you could want if you get into a buyer/seller conflict and is lighter reading than the full govt docs on trade law.

Maximum costs for a £1000 to £5000 claim are 10% of claim to a max of £150 so not too prohibitive and there are no other costs as it is handled in County Court.

Although the bottom line is that your credit card will pay out athough there have been many cases of credit card companies bullying consumers into believing they have to chase it direct with the seller and people slinking quietly away without fighting for their rights.

Also came across something I didn't know and that is that use of "sold as seen" is actually against the law in the motor trade?

Have decided to take it outside and fill it up and see.........I think

 

[rabbut]

I didn't see the tank was sold it as ex-display having had it confirmed that there were no significant marks or scratches by email.

I think you need to look over the exact phrasing of the e-mail reply. That makes it sound like the responce is evaluating cosmetic damage, and may not be making referance to structural. For the size of the tank, the scratch is only minor from a cosmetic point of view, and so is compliant to contract if this is reflected in their e-mail. If the e-mail is unclear as to whether it is refuring to cosmetic or structural damage, you may still have a shaky case for dispute, but if it only covers cosmetic, you are scuppered...

Let us know how things go on

Where did you buy from, might I ask, and where abouts are you based? I'm sure someone with a similar fault the other day was based in Leeds, near me, when I glanced down below their Avatar, but your is blank... Hopefully, when you raise the issue with the shop, they will respond to positively fix the issue. I would not advise filling it with water if you are going to try for a claim, untill you have contacted the shop and explained the situation to them and got their go-ahead

All the best
Rabbut

 

[malakye]

Credit card companies can help with a lot of issues but its not a definate that you can claim your money back from them. It becomes unstuck when it comes to buying ex display items, they are usually considered to have minor faults, scratches etc. due to the fact they were ex display.
Yes items sold have to be fit for purpose, but all the company has to do is say it didn't have that chip when it left, I doubt your CCTV will show that chip when it was delivered, so it would be up to you to prove it was already there. It would come down to your word against the company and as you couldnt prove it without shadow of doubt and you bought knowing it was ex display, I doubt if you would win your case sadly if it did go down that route and as Rabbut said you could be left liable for costs.
Have you contacted the company involved? What has there response been like?
I don't mean to sound harsh but I have been involved in retail for years and have seen cases similar (not fish tanks) from both points of view.

 

[Rooster]

Get it replaced, or get a refund... you have the RIGHT to either - and its YOUR choice !

Contact the supplier and tell them what you have found, tell them you are unhappy.

Doesnt matter that it was "ex display" or even "second hand".... its not upto them to decide that "its ok mate, only a scratch" etc... thats YOUR decision.
Too many people get shafted these days because the shops BS you legally... the law IS on YOUR side, go in there knowing you are right, and you will be sorted... this isnt conjecture, or guess work ITS FACT.

What do you think would happen if you scratch away at a fully inflated balloon ? - exactly ! DONT TAKE THE RISK.

 

[keenonfish]

I guess if you don't have any luck with a replacement you could always replace the pane? I certainly wouldn't fill such a large tank with a scratch that deep!

 

[HappyGeorge]

Thanks Rooster.

From one champion of justice to another nice to see someone else who stands up for themselves too many people fobbed off these days by a companies insistance that they can dictate their own laws. As a Police Officer I don't have a huge knowledge of civil law but I do have more than the average Joe and seems many people get confused between the two. i.e burden of proof being balance of probability and not beyond reasonable doubt. People really should read up on them as the amount of misinformation that seems to have become accepted as the truth makes it difficult for us all.

I have made people who short changed me count tills - have had a letter of apology from the head of BMW UK - am currently getting free broadband and a mobile from my Network and free Sky Sports all from making reasonable polite justified firm and structured complaints to the right people. I take a pride in my work and expect others to do the same. I am big enough and ugly enough to stand up for myself - Oh and I'm stubborn and tenacious which is always helpful.

To be honest was hoping I would get loads of fill it up and see how you goes or an idea of the feasibility of a repair as returning it will be a real pain. Trouble is I got an amazing deal and cant see me getting another less than half price tank in a hurry.

Apologies for the lack of commas - small matter of half a litre of coke starting a fight with my laptop!!

 

[Rooster]

Might be a bargain, but add up the cost of your carpets, sofas potential building works... I have seen ONE of these go POP in my 40 odd years, and it scared the cr@p out of me... you wouldnt believe the damage it causes.

 

[HappyGeorge]

I can imagine

Was thinking I might take up my nicely polished Victorian floorboards and if it goes bang it will just pour into the underfloor cavity and get soaked up by the old plaster that I dumped there when I damp proofed the walls?..................No?...............Thought not.

Just waiting now for someone who thinks Im being serious and posts a warning.

 

[rabbut]

If the pain blows when it's full, all 450l will hit the floor in about 3-4 seconds, literaly. I have seen these blow out before, thankfully not my tank, and they make quite a mess.

TBH, you either want a replacement tank or to replace the pain if you are going to fill it for the first time indoors... If you are going to fill it with the current pain in place, it wants to be done outdoors The water damage if it goes indoors will damage paper on the walls and possibly spread into the adjascent room(s) with that volume of water

All the best
Rabbut