Chemistry Issues

[button]

I am new to this hobby and obsessing like crazy- to the point where i am not getting much sleep because with a newborn the only time i can work on my tanks is in the middle of the night when he's sleeping. Anyways, ANY assistance or advice would be GREATLY appreciated. I have the following:
a used 100 gallon tank with that i just bought 1 week ago (had 2 biowheel filters with 3 used wheels that I saved hoping it would help cycle)
2 big angelfish
3 mollies
3 small bala's
3 dwarf gourami's
4 mickey platy's
2 giant danios
1 red-finned shark
I know that this is a lot of fish for a "new" tank but my husband just assumed the since we were getting a used tank with used bio-wheels it would already be cycled (there was only 3 large fish in the tank with previous owner)
and stopping him from buying fish has been very difficult

I also have a 10 gallon that was cycled but restarted due to using it to treat a sick bala. As of this morning it now contains
3 fancy tail guppies
2 Blood-fin (something's)
1 small weird molly my dad gave me
4 molly fry
The bala died yesterday so I did a 50% water change, replaced the carbon filter and added water safe before my husband put in all the fish (it only contained the "weird" molly yesterday)
Water tested this morning on this tank showed
Nitrites at somewhere between .5 and 1 the ammonia was .25
the only thing they had at the lfs to treat was prime and when i retested it 12 hours later it didn't seem to make a difference so i put in 2 tsp of aquarium salt and another dose of prime and put some black diamond ammonia granules in the filter

my 100 gallon shows a PH of 8- should i be concerned?
and the Nitrites also have a reading of .5 (i didn't use prime on this one) and ammonia was 1.0 (i treated it with 8 ammonia fizz tablets by jungle and put black diamond carbon/ammonia granules in the filter.
Last week we were putting Biozyme pinches in the tank daily and yesterday i put the recommended "cycle" dose for new tanks in it (an after browsing the posts i see that this probably did absolutely nothing)

Any suggestions to help get my chemistry correct and hopefully prevent any loss of fish would be GREATLY appreciated
Sorry if this is hard to read- Its late and I am trying to hurry because I should get some sleep before I have a crying baby wanting fed.
Thank you in advance for any assistance anyone can offer.
V/R

 

[backtotropical]

Hi,

First of all, throwing chemicals at fish isn't a good solution. You mention lots of different chemical which you are using.

Prime is good and water conditioner is always useful. Everything else you can throw out.

Your fish will be dying because your tank is not cycled. Even if it was cycled when you got it, it wont be now with the amount of fish you have added.

The best way to remedy this is to take some fish back to the shop, or temporarily get someone to look after them until you sort the tank out.

Regardless of whether you do that or not, the way to improve your water is with water changes. Don't be afraid to do big ones, say 75%. Just make sure you treat the fresh water with conditioner before adding it to the tank. Do as many water changes as it takes to keep ammonia and nitrite below 0.25. You will need to continue doing this until the bacteria in your filter catch up.

Get rid of the ammo chips, ammonia tablets, carbon etc. You are making things complicated and relying on these chemicals instead of your filter. Your filter should be able to do the job on its own, and will if you give it a chance.

Water change, water change, water change!

Good luck and if you have any questions, just ask.

BTT

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Absolutley agree with BTT

Unfortunatley there are a lot of useless products on the market, all because they know a lot of newbes don't cycle, will get fish, have problems and try to throw money at it to make it go away. Virtually every product you have mentioned is rubbish (sorry to be blunt, but it's true).

The best thing to do IMHO is take all the fish back to the shop, do a fishless cycle on both tanks and start over. However if you're not prepared to do that then it's daily water changes, as BTT said, don't be scared of big water changes.

Regarding your pH, can you test what the pH of your tap water is?

Unfortunatley ammonia is more toxic at a higher pH, so even a relativley low reading will do a lot of harm to the fish if the pH of the water is 8.

 

[waterdrop]

button,

Welcome to the forum! What a great idea to enjoy tropical fish while taking care of a new baby! You are stuck at home a lot and eventually after you get the hobby all working right, it will be a relaxing thing to sit and watch with your baby!

Miss Wiggle and BTT are Pros and you will do well to listen to their comments and take them very seriously - the rest of us beginners have learned much watching them help newbies.

I am a beginner like you but have been carefully reading as much as I can on TFF (Tropical Fish Forums) for the last couple of months and am now into the fishless cycling process. My son and I know we still have 4 weeks or so before we can hope to bring fish home to our tank.

I recommend you read rdd1952's (I call him RD) fishless cycling article which is pinned at the beginning of the "New to the Hobby" section of the forums. Read this carefully and repeatedly and it will begin to give you a good basis for understanding the cycling fundamentals (apologies if you already actually know this but from the sound of your message you may have the use of the word cycling confused some with products and other things.) Then I recommend you log in whenever you can and read the threads of questions and answers in the New to the Hobby section so you can keep learning. Eventually you will start to get the gist of what's really important. It takes a lot of patience (like a baby!) (remember, with children, the highs are higher and the lows are lower but the experience is well worth it! and the TF hobby is like that too!)

Because you are lucky and have been able to jump in with a huge tank and an extra tank you have perhaps unknowingly created some extra problems but the experts will help you maybe make the difficult decision to return/vacation your fish or make other decisions like that. If you choose to keep them and do water changes it will be potentially a lot of work; a 25% water change on a 100G is 25G and that means getting 25G of water dechlorinated and temperature matched and then transferred in at least once a day (possibly!, again I'm not the expert.) It sounds like you've got an enthusiastic spouse though, so maybe this is possible!

So right now, because you may have ammonia and nitrites putting a bit of a burn on the fishes gills, you'll have to make some decisions and take some actions. But the point I was hoping to make is that in addition, go ahead and start reading and learning at this great forum about the right way to to it - it's fun and entertaining! In the long run you will get it down and it will potentially be a wonderful hobby to enjoy with your child over many years.

Good Luck!! ~waterdrop~~

 

[rdd1952]

I can't add a lot to what has already been said but wll go a little more into what has happened. It is true that the tank may have already been cycled but there is only enough bacteria present at any time to handle the fsh load of the fish present. So there was bacteria there for the 3 fish. When you add more fish, the bacteria colony has to multiply enough to catch up. Although most bacteria usually double in a matter of seconds (or microseconds), nitrifying bacteria tae between about 10 to 30 hours to double themselves. Most people usually say 24 hours but it really depends on the water parameters. Optimal pH for reproduction is in the 7s and slows severely as the pH gets lower. If the bacteria were still present when you set the tank up, they would normally reproduce and clear the tank of ammonia and nitrite pretty quick but the ammonia removal media may prevent that. And if the bio-wheels had dried out, then the bacteria would be gone anyway as they must be kept wet.

The problem with ammo chips and otherammonia removal products is that they adsorb the ammonia from the water and thus it is no longer available for the bacteria to feed on. What that means is the bacteria colony actually starts to shrink rather than increase. You basically become depended on the products and if you ever stop using them or when they become saturated, you suddenly get ammonia spikes again.

Keep up the water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrite at or below .25 ppm until the finally drop to zero. Here is the link to a pretty good thread on a fish-in cycle. But as mentioned, the only way to get through it with the fish in the tank is water changes and more water changes.

 

[button]

I feared this- I try telling my husband and even my dad (he has a 55 gallon that he never "tests" or anything that he's had for almost a year and is overcrowded and seems to be "fine")and is the one that got me started on this) that we cant just get a bunch of fish right away but no one seems to believe me. Of course we bought the majority of the fish at Petsmart and they wont take them all back so I guess my only option is water changes-cross my fingers and pray!! Does anyone know if Spring water helps these things or not? The lady at the store told us that adding spring water with the water change would help the cause. But after reviewing some of the things on here I know to take what they say with a grain of salt. Woud a 25% water change daily be best or a 50% every other day? They also said that you cant change the water more than every 3 days. I REALLY hope I can keep my fish alive- I also habe 6 live plants in my 100 gallon and everything SEEMS to be doing ok.
One thing I forgot to mention- the previous owner of the 100 used it for Cichlids and had 3 large limstone rocks in it that left a heavy white buildup all over the tank and filter housing that I spent hours cleaning off. Also, for the first week we used the same gravel and changed it out 3 days ago- Could these factors be messing things up too??
Again, thank everyone for all the help- I am ever so grateful and I apoligize for my "ignorance" when it comes to this stuff. Im learning as much as I can as fast as I can.
My tap water PH is 7.4

 

[button]

actually it 7.6- if that matters

 

[Miss Wiggle]

I feared this- I try telling my husband and even my dad (he has a 55 gallon that he never "tests" or anything that he's had for almost a year and is overcrowded and seems to be "fine")and is the one that got me started on this) that we cant just get a bunch of fish right away but no one seems to believe me. Of course we bought the majority of the fish at Petsmart and they wont take them all back so I guess my only option is water changes-cross my fingers and pray!! Does anyone know if Spring water helps these things or not? The lady at the store told us that adding spring water with the water change would help the cause. But after reviewing some of the things on here I know to take what they say with a grain of salt. Woud a 25% water change daily be best or a 50% every other day? They also said that you cant change the water more than every 3 days. I REALLY hope I can keep my fish alive- I also habe 6 live plants in my 100 gallon and everything SEEMS to be doing ok.
One thing I forgot to mention- the previous owner of the 100 used it for Cichlids and had 3 large limstone rocks in it that left a heavy white buildup all over the tank and filter housing that I spent hours cleaning off. Also, for the first week we used the same gravel and changed it out 3 days ago- Could these factors be messing things up too??
Again, thank everyone for all the help- I am ever so grateful and I apoligize for my "ignorance" when it comes to this stuff. Im learning as much as I can as fast as I can.
My tap water PH is 7.4

hiya button, you're hear and learning so you're doing the rigth thing, leave the mistake behind you, so long as you're open minded and trying you won't be penalised here

everyone had to start somewhere, i made a right old mess of my first tank, happens to a lot of people so don't be disheartened.

you don't need spring water, you can do changes every day (dunno where the 3 days thing came from, it's non sense), best to keep small (ish) and regular. do a big 75% change to start, then 25% changes daily.

the white limestone build up will be calcium, this is what's raising you're pH. Once you've got it cleaned off the pH should stabilise.

 

[rdd1952]

Normally, pH is probably one of the least important things to know. As long as it is stable, most fish will adapt to it and do fine. The pH does matter in your case though as ammonia becomes more toxic as pH levels rise. The test kits we use measure total ammonia which is ammonium (non-toxic) and ammonia (toxic). As pH levels rise or drop, the percentage of ammonia and ammonium change. So .5 ppm of ammonia at a pH of 7.5 is worse than .5 at 6.5. Using a product like Prime, Ammo-Lock or Amquel will detoxify all the ammonia. You will still get the same reading but it will be non-toxic. But keep iin mind that those products only work on ammonia present when you add it and any produced later will still be toxic. The main thing is to keep up the water changes. Once you get the levels down, it will be easier to keep them there.

One last thing, if you want to have live plants, buy them and add as soon as possible (be sure you check the lighting requirements of the plants you want). Plants use ammonia and will help with the problem.

 

[button]

Thanks guys for all the support! I scrubbed all the lime/calcium off the tank before putting the fish in but I did reuse the gravel until about three days ago (yes we scooped it all out and put in tahitian moon substrate with the fish in there) and I now see that this was probably a mistake because all that leaves me for left over biological filter is the Biowheels (hopefully the bacteria on there didn't die off during transfer) we fiqured that the gravel in there was causing problems- the previous owners told use after the fact that they started with 23 Cichlids and all but one "mysteriously died" in the last few months.

I did a 25% water change this morning on the 100 gallon and tonight my readings are:
Nitrite- .25
Nitrate- between 5-10
Ammonia- about .25 MAYBE a little higher
Could I please get a little clarification on if I just keep changing the water daily OR only if it reaches a certain level? I understand that there needs to be a little bit of these things in the tank in order for it to Cycle so I am a little confused. Also, I know some of you dont believe in products but I hear that Bio-Spira can really help in these situations- Does anyone think that if I get this tomorrow if it will help the cause? I will try and review past posts on here and try to find answers tonight. Thanks again everyone for the warm welcome and assistance!! Now i am off to change 50% of the 10 gallon
V/R
determined newbie trying to save her fish

 

[rdd1952]

Changing the gravel probably didn' harm your bacteria much. Unless the tank has an undergravel filter, there is only a very small amount f bacteria in the substrate and it is onthe surface. there has to be water flow over a surface to bring food (ammonia and nitrite) by before bacteria will colonize there. And what ever may have been on the gravel when you took it out of the tank to move it, would have been jumbled and mixed when you put it back so it's unlikely that the same gravel would have ended up on top again.

As for Bio-Spira, it is the one product I believe does work. I personally haven't used it before but it supposedly has the proper bacteria in it and many claim it does work. Your ammonia and nitrite levels look good at the moment. And the fact that you have nitrate means that there are nitrite oxidizing bacteria present and processing nitrite (either that or you have nitrate in your tap water) which is also good. Just keep up the water changes and you should be able to keep the levels around or below .25 ppm. As you mentioned, there has to be some ammonia and nitrite in the water for the tank to cycle. You just don't want it to get so high that it caused any significant damage to the fish.

 

[button]

When do I change the water again- is 25% good? (sorry for so many questions I just want to make sure its done right)

 

[rdd1952]

If you can do 25% and keep the levels down, that is fine but it's also fine if you need to do more.