Carpeting The Aquarium And Green Dust Algae Problems!

[mark4785]

Now, looking at the picture, the LB doesn't look all that bad to me. You've got some healthy growth IMO. If this were my LB, I'd take it out and replant in smaller groups, about three plants per group. You'll get better spread and the roots will have a better chance to anchor. Furthermore, the smaller groupings will do better, since they are less crowded by the other LB. Hope this helps a bit. My suggestion is to take out the LB, separate it, and replant.

Ok thanks.

I'll remove it possibly tomorrow and try to remove the rockwool again; the water has probably softened it up by now anyway.

When I remove the bulk of the LB from the substrate the off-shoots will also come out with it as they are attached to it. Because of this should I snip the connection between the bulk and the off-shoots or will this kill the off-shoots?

Also, with regards to the green-dust algae, should I simply add more macro-nutrients (ingredients of my macro-solution: Macro Solution: 33g Potassium Nitrate, 7.2g Potassium Phosphate and 250ml Water) to stop this or should I make a standalone phosphate solution since a lack of phosphate is typically the cause of green-dust algae?

I've been adding 13ml of the EI macro-solution I rely on which supposedly equates to a sufficient amount of NPK but yet I'm still getting a lot of this green algae.

 

[lljdma06]

Now, looking at the picture, the LB doesn't look all that bad to me. You've got some healthy growth IMO. If this were my LB, I'd take it out and replant in smaller groups, about three plants per group. You'll get better spread and the roots will have a better chance to anchor. Furthermore, the smaller groupings will do better, since they are less crowded by the other LB. Hope this helps a bit. My suggestion is to take out the LB, separate it, and replant.

Ok thanks.

I'll remove it possibly tomorrow and try to remove the rockwool again; the water has probably softened it up by now anyway.

When I remove the bulk of the LB from the substrate the off-shoots will also come out with it as they are attached to it. Because of this should I snip the connection between the bulk and the off-shoots or will this kill the off-shoots?

If the off-shoots have their own root structure, then snip away.

Also, with regards to the green-dust algae, should I simply add more macro-nutrients (ingredients of my macro-solution: Macro Solution: 33g Potassium Nitrate, 7.2g Potassium Phosphate and 250ml Water) to stop this or should I make a standalone phosphate solution since a lack of phosphate is typically the cause of green-dust algae?

I've been adding 13ml of the EI macro-solution I rely on which supposedly equates to a sufficient amount of NPK but yet I'm still getting a lot of this green algae.

Maybe you neeed more, how long have you been adding just the 13ml macro solution, and how often to you add it?

This is the reason why I love TPN+ Sorry, it's just so much simpler for me. I don't bother. If my plants show a deficiency, I just dose more of the whole thing. Excess is not going to cause problems if you do waterchanges. At least I have not found this to be the case in my systems. Because I use a single solution, though, wait for somebody who mixes ferts to answer as they may have more insight.

Liz

 

[mark4785]

Maybe you neeed more, how long have you been adding just the 13ml macro solution, and how often to you add it?

I'm following the EI dosing regime on James' Planted tank so this is what the schedule looks like:

Daily Schedule
Sunday 50% water change. Add Macros (KNO3, KH2PO4)
Monday Add Traces
Tuesday Add Macros (KNO3, KH2PO4)
Wednesday Add Traces
Thursday Add Macros (KNO3, KH2PO4)
Friday Add Traces
Saturday Rest day

I've been adding 13ml for about 4 weeks. At first the plants started growing extremely quickly and my BGA issue went away. However, the BGA has been replaced with green-dust algae and I'm not sure what to do to deter it from growing back.

My macro solution contains potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate.

Based on 33g Potassium Nitrate and 7.2g Potassium Phosphate both dissolved in 250ml of DI Water, I have calculated the following:

If 5ml of P nitrate is added to 120 litres of aquarium water, it increases the nitrate level by 3.37ppm. 3.37 x 3 = 10.11 ppm. The target is to add 8 ppm of nitrate 3x a week according to EI dosing.

If 5ml of P phosphate is added to 120 litres of aquarium water, it increases the phosphate level by 0.84ppm. 0.84ppm x 3 = 2.52ppm. The target is to add 2ppm 3x a week according to EI dosing.

So do I need to add more macro solution or not? I'm really not sure. Seeing as green-dust algae is supposed to be caused by low phosphate I did ask if making a standalone phosphate solution would be useful?

Mark.

 

[mark4785]

Would anybody know what to do to stop green-dust algae, bearing in mind what I've discussed in the previous post and elsewhere in the topic?

Thanks.

 

[lljdma06]

If this were me, Mark, save yourself the labor of a phosphate solution and just up you macros. 4 weeks seems about time to up the dosing, especially if there has been growth.

L

 

[mark4785]

If this were me, Mark, save yourself the labor of a phosphate solution and just up you macros. 4 weeks seems about time to up the dosing, especially if there has been growth.

L

Ok I may try that. I did notice a recent topic concerning nitrate build-up which kinda' deters me from the prospect of upping the nitrate dose. I think the poster stated words to this effect: 'If at the end of the week, you only conduct a 50% W/C to reinvigorate the KH and GH as well as remove detritus and nitrate, surely there will be untouched nitrate concentrations left over that you haven't removed, so if you continue with the same cycle of weekly 50% W/C's, will that remaining nitrate eventually reach a toxic level since it is never being removed?'.

I think of nitrate like oil; if some of its sitting on the bottom of the tank what good does a 50% W/C do? How do you stop the toxic build-up?

I know the above question is quite complex but I'm sure there is an answer which doesn't involve reducing nitrate dosing.

 

[lljdma06]

Well, while you are increasing the dosing, why don't you just do another waterchange if you are nervous about it? I'm sorry, I just think very simplistically. If you're worried about build-up, just change more water. I will regularly do more than one 50% waterchange a week on my heavily dosed tanks. Right now, I'm doing a waterchange every other day because of initial ammonia build-up because of changing plant growth and plants getting used to their new environment, and I'm adding stock. Now, I only use a single solution, which is a little different than you, but it's still dosing and dosing heavily at that. I don't know, what do you think of this?

Liz

 

[mark4785]

Well, while you are increasing the dosing, why don't you just do another waterchange if you are nervous about it? I'm sorry, I just think very simplistically. If you're worried about build-up, just change more water. I will regularly do more than one 50% waterchange a week on my heavily dosed tanks. Right now, I'm doing a waterchange every other day because of initial ammonia build-up because of changing plant growth and plants getting used to their new environment, and I'm adding stock. Now, I only use a single solution, which is a little different than you, but it's still dosing and dosing heavily at that. I don't know, what do you think of this?

Liz

I think that's a good way to go about it tbh (in your circumstances), however, I'm following EI dosing instructions from the James' Planted Tank website which involves only doing a 50% W/C on a sunday. I don't want to do something thats out of line with the dosing regime since it's been doing the tank a lot of good in terms of plant growth, but IMO I think there will eventually be a nitrate problem, which will be hard to resolve if I am to stick to the EI dosing regime at all times.

I guess I could do a 70% W/C exclusively on sundays where I find a massive nitrate build-up and alter the macro-dosages a bit with the aim of lowering the nitrate to levels safe for fish AND useful for plants.

 

[mark4785]

Would anybody else like to chip in with any of their own ideas?

I guess the topic at the moment is how to get rid of green-dust algae and how to avoid nitrate build up when EI dosing.

 

[ian]

Can I just ask why you are worried about nitrate build up?

And just up the water changes, it's not going to hurt. Contrary to EI myth, the weekly water change isn't there to 'reset' you tank, it's used to get rid of the organic build up.

edit, however i have just read your post above regarding the water changes, James planted tank is a guideline (a very good one), but you need to do what your tank is telling you. You may not follow the advice given, but many people will dose EI and do bi or tri weekly water changes to reduce organic build up, which in turn, gets broken down into it's biological and chemical constituents. This may be seen as ammonia/ammonium, or nitrites. I also have read from good resources that organic waste buildup in a tank has the effect of adding to the thickness of the bio film by adhering to the plant leaves, thereby blocking gas exchange and impeding nutrient/CO2 uptake by the leaves.

now i like (like llj) to look at things simplistically in a planted tank. Look at what the tank is telling you. Like in my job, we now work by numbers, we work out if a person is unwell via a scoring system, this adds complications. When it comes to life, instinct tell us something is wrong. Its the same with an aquarium. If it doesn't look right, it probably isn't. Your algae problems are telling you something isn't right, even after a month or so of EI.


My guess with your tank is...it needs more water changes and i think it still needs more flow.

 

[SuperColey1]

Ian is right there. The 'reset' was diplomatically used in the early days (and still now to some extent) to remove the 'fear factor' over build up. It was always to remove organic wastes (healthy plants produce waste just as the fish do.)

I would just forget the calculators and working out the ppms ad just follow the dosing on the EI guide allied to the 120g tank range. That would mean:

12ml macros 3 x a week and 6ml trace 3 x a week.

I'm not so sure it 'needs' more water changes. 50% weekly was enough for me and that was when I could be bothered If it helps though then go for it.

On the rockwool question It is just that. Rockwool. It shouldn't cause any circulation issues as it is not so dense as substrates such as clay.

There are varying views as to its use as you can see before.

Some say it must all be removed. Some say it causes root problems although I would question why they use it in emeresed conditions if that were true. Many people have different experiences with putting it in or removing it.

I personally (if I ever bought plants these days) get the pot, depending on the plant cut the rockwool away leaving 1cm and then divide that into 8 or so pieces and plant it rockwool and all.

Many top scapers do it this way. Many others spend a couple of hours seperating and plantinng individually

FYI - The link to Tropica above indeed does take the rockwool away. That is pretty easy with some plants however if you watch the one I link to here (Tropica again) look at them planting the HC (about 1 min in.) They seperate the HC into small clumps with the rockwool still there and then plant. I seem to remember being told that it is actually Oliver Knott doing the planting.

http/www.youtube.com/user/tratropica#p/u/7/5KL8PZeX9os

AC

AC

 

[mark4785]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm still persisting with green-dust-algae and green-spot-algae. The dust algae is caused by spores according to one source but I don't see any spores. Maybe I should get a sample of water and look at it under the telescope because the spores have got to be microscopic if they are indeed in the tank.

As for the spot algae, one source says that is caused by low phosphate. I've started adding 15ml of my EI macro-solution instead of 12-13 and would appear it isn't making any difference in terms of getting rid of algae.

Cyanobacteria is also popping up on the dense branches/leaves of my limnophila sessiliflora plants (the inner branches where there isn't much flow). It is not growing on any other plants which are more exposed to good flow so I don't see the growth of cyano as being caused by low nitrate.

I'm not sure what to think of Ianho's comment regarding 'not enough flow'. There is no more room in the tank to actually create more flow. For instance, if I wanted to install another powerhead, the only available space is behind the Limnophila' and here it will likely suck in this plants' leaves through the intake grill.

It's hard to work out whether a lack of phosphate is the real cause of the spot algae purely because the plants would be suffering (which they are not in my case).

I'm trying to achieve this sort of appearance in my aquarium: http/www.tropica.com/layouts/some-experience/the-classic-aquarium-%28128l%29/description.aspx , but it just isn't happening...

 

[mark4785]

Bump.

edit: any other suggestions?

 

[SuperColey1]

Cyanobacteria is also popping up on the dense branches/leaves of my limnophila sessiliflora plants (the inner branches where there isn't much flow). It is not growing on any other plants which are more exposed to good flow so I don't see the growth of cyano as being caused by low nitrate

The problem here is the same as the 'low phosphates' problem I would assume.

You can have a tank with plenty of everything in it however half the tank or as you can see just some areas have 'deadspots'. This means tha circulation in some areas is not moving the nutrients in as quickly as others and therefore some areas the plants are defficient where other areas aren't.

That is where the flow comes in. Its like a delivery company that doesn't has enough vehicles but they aren't spread out in the right regions meaning some regions get superb service where others get delayed deliveries etc.

The flow is the vehicle that transports all the nutrients (including CO2) and therefore if the flow in one area isn't sufficient then it will not receive enough of the nutrients and therefore gives the impression that not enough flow is just a myth. It isn't though.

Therefore you may have low nitrate in the area the Cyano isgrowing and you may have low phosphate in the regions where the GSA is growing. The glass is one of those problems that may not really be affected by phosphate. Like I said many people have left it to run its cycle for 3-4 weeks at which point it looks disgusting and goes from green to brown to yellow in some places. A crusty texture/appearance. At this point turn the filters off, scrape the algae off the glass whilst holding a net below to catch most of it. After you've done that get out your syphon and suck up the rest from the substrate and voila. After 1 cycle (or 2 in some cases) the problem is gone for ever. No idea why but many have shown this to be effective and an accurate method.

As for the spores question. All algae is spread through spores just as most plants in the wild grow from seds that are blow in the wind or transported by creatures. The spores in most cases are at a level where they are invisible. In some cases they are very visible and this is where you se green water.

Once the spore attaches to an object it just grows. UV will kill free floating spores just as they kill parasites. If the plants or fish could pass through the UV they would also be killed. So a UV will kill these free floating spores but just as parasites once they find a host (attach themsleves to plants/fish) they can then no longer pass through the UV.

I think you will get to the stage where you are fed up with the internals and all the space they waste and ditch them in favour of an external. At this point if you get something in the 1200lph or a little more maybe you will find that flow is improved massively. Then you may also find these 2 problems disappear.

Experience helps really. We always suggest to newbies that you MUST put fast growing stems in from the start and have 75% substrate coverage or you will get an algae farm. However once you gain experience/confidence/ability this is not a MUST anymore.

For example I used to have algae problem on new scapes in the early days. This was even though I had fast growing stems in. Without it would've been worse. These days I plant up and never use fast growing stems. In some cases I don't even put in 25% substrate coverage. I don't get the problems though.

Keep on with the patience though. I'm sure you can see that in the last few months the tank has gotten better and better as you've made improvements. You'll reach a point eventually where you have the perfect balanced setup and the know how to go with it which will then give you the option of not having to worry about anything if you decide to rescape from scratch. You'll just take everything out. Rescape with brand new materials plants and then put the fish back in without no problems whatsoever.

AC


As for the no more room for powerheads etc. I agree but this is why we suggested ditching the Cayman and getting a larger external filter. That would've actually given you more room than you had before whilst increasing the flow sufficiently. Then if necessary you could've just used one Koralia to 'boost' flow.

 

[mark4785]

I think you will get to the stage where you are fed up with the internals and all the space they waste and ditch them in favour of an external. At this point if you get something in the 1200lph or a little more maybe you will find that flow is improved massively. Then you may also find these 2 problems disappear.

Maybe so, but I avoided getting an external filter in favour of an additional internal because myself and a family member are afraid of the potential for it to leak.

I'd also have a lot of anxiety about transferring the biological/mechanical sponges from the Cayman internal to a much larger external filter since the 2 separate lots of biological ceramic rings are sealed in 2 black boxes (can't get them out of it) and the filtration sponges may not fit in a larger filter manufactured by a different company.

As for the no more room for powerheads etc. I agree but this is why we suggested ditching the Cayman and getting a larger external filter. That would've actually given you more room than you had before whilst increasing the flow sufficiently. Then if necessary you could've just used one Koralia to 'boost' flow.

As said above, I avoided an external due to anxiety about a nitrogen spike and the practicality of using smaller media and media locked in a black casing in a completely different product.

There's also another problem in that one three-pronged mains plug switches the cayman filter, fluorescent lights and heater on simultaneously so I'd have to get an electrical expert in to remove the cayman filter; it would be extremely dangerous otherwise as me being me, I would probably just get the scissors and remove the filter that way.

So I'm pretty much stuck with a useless filter thanks to the way in which ferplast chose to wire it up to a shared mains plug .

The biggest hurdle is the electrical issue. I'm sure my anxiety about an external filter will gradually fade if I find one that is well known for being reliable and safe and after I have observed the fish responding positively after the transition of the filter media from the internal to the external.