Carbon Filter

[Xavier]

will a carbon zeolite filter( you know the one that you slide in the black box) will that absorb stress coat and stress zyme?

 

[*Fishkies*]

It shouldn't as those are like a water conditioner kind of. I have used those products and don't believe the carbon has taken it out.

Carbon typically just absorbs, odors & colors in the tank.

 

[Xavier]

It shouldn't as those are like a water conditioner kind of. I have used those products and don't believe the carbon has taken it out.

Carbon typically just absorbs, odors & colors in the tank.

you sure, cuz i took it out. can i put it back in?

 

[*Fishkies*]

Does it say on the bottle remove the carbon??

 

[kewskills]

water conditioners will be fine with carbon, meds etc wont, like fishkies said check the bottles for confirmation

 

[Xavier]

doesn't say. but you know how they are sometimes. they want you to buy more so they won't tell you...

 

[*Fishkies*]

You could also try calling the company up and ask them. Then that way you have an actual response from the people who make it.

 

[raptorrex]

this may help!
Activated Charcoal (Carbon)

Activated carbon is a chemical medium. It has a highly fractured surface, and any organic compounds that come in contact with the surface of the carbon stay there. This process is called "adsorption" (not absorption, which is something else entirely). Because of the fracturerd surface, each carbon grain has a large surface area, and will adsorb a lot of stuff, but eventually the carbon becomes saturated, and needs to be replaced. In theory, it can be cleaned and reused by being baked in a hot oven, but there's not much point since carbon is usually very inexpensive.

The question for many aquarists is why use carbon. Back in years gone by, before filters were as effective as they are now, aquarists tended to leave weeks, even months, before water changes. The idea was that the stability of the aquarium was the thing, and water changes disrupted the equilibrium. Because of the way these tanks were being run, the water became "old", and acquired a yellowy tint from the organic chemicals that were building up in the aquarium. Carbon adsorbed these chemicals, known by a German word, "gelbstoff", and so got rid of the yellow tint.

In a modern, well-maintained aquarium, there should be no build up of organic chemicals in the water. Hence, carbon isn't strictly necessary. Moreover, carbon has an important negative attribute: it adsorbs fish medicines. If you are treating for something like whitespot, it is vital that any carbon in the filter is removed. Otherwise, the carbon will neutralise the medicine, and stop your fish getting better.

It is also important to realise carbon is an excellent medium for filter bacteria. After a few weeks, the surface of the carbon is so completely covered in bacteria that any adsorbtion properties it orginally had will have diminished almost to zero. Hence, if you want to use carbon as a chemical medium, you need to clean it and/or replace it on a regular basis (i.e., every few weeks).

Zeolite (Ammonia Remover)

Zeolite is a mineral that binds with ammonium, and in doing so removes that ammonium from the water. This is obviously a good thing in an aquarium, and zeolite is often marketed as a "wonder media", a cure-all for immature aquaria.

It isn't quite that simple. Ammonium removed chemically can't be used to feed filter bacteria, so using zeolite in a young aquarium will only delay the development of the biological filter. Moreover, once the zeolite is saturated, it won't accept any more ammonium, and without a viable biological filter, that ammonium is going to build up and poison your fish. Finally, zeolite will not work in brackish or marine aquaria, because while zeolite takes ammonium in freshwater conditions, it surrenders that ammonium in salty water.

Personally, I don't have any use for zeolite except in emergency tanks such as ones set up to hold an unexpected batch of baby fish. A healthy biological filter is far more reliable alternative for most other aquaria.
with thanks to nmonks!!!!

taken from this thread: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=139488.

 

[MHunt]

Carbon is used to absorb many impurities in the water, medications and discolouration being a couple of them. You may find some of the water conditioner being absorbed in time, but as it reacts with the chlorine chloramine and heavy metals pretty quickly, it shouldn't be an issue there. To be honest i put it in my filters when i need to and forget about it untill i need to do any treatments.

What you do need to be aware of though is if the same carbon is left in the tank for too long it becomes saturated with the chemicals it has absorbed and they can start to leech back out into the tank.

 

[raptorrex]

Carbon is used to absorb many impurities in the water, medications and discolouration being a couple of them. You may find some of the water conditioner being absorbed in time, but as it reacts with the chlorine chloramine and heavy metals pretty quickly, it shouldn't be an issue there. To be honest i put it in my filters when i need to and forget about it untill i need to do any treatments.

What you do need to be aware of though is if the same carbon is left in the tank for too long it becomes saturated with the chemicals it has absorbed and they can start to leech back out into the tank.

actually carbon aDsorbs, far more than it aBsorbs. in fact none of the things you mention in your post are aBsorbed, all are aDsorbed. and there is no evidence to suggest that aDsorbed chemicals and heavy metals can leach back into the tank. but as you state aBsorbed items may return to the tank if the carbon is not changed. it must also be remembered that items needed by your tank are also removed by carbon! hence the general consensus that it best not to use carbon, except for removing meds, and the odd spot of water clarification.

 

[MHunt]

Carbon is used to absorb many impurities in the water, medications and discolouration being a couple of them. You may find some of the water conditioner being absorbed in time, but as it reacts with the chlorine chloramine and heavy metals pretty quickly, it shouldn't be an issue there. To be honest i put it in my filters when i need to and forget about it untill i need to do any treatments.

What you do need to be aware of though is if the same carbon is left in the tank for too long it becomes saturated with the chemicals it has absorbed and they can start to leech back out into the tank.

actually carbon aDsorbs, far more than it aBsorbs. in fact none of the things you mention in your post are aBsorbed, all are aDsorbed. and there is no evidence to suggest that aDsorbed chemicals and heavy metals can leach back into the tank. but as you state aBsorbed items may return to the tank if the carbon is not changed. it must also be remembered that items needed by your tank are also removed by carbon! hence the general consensus that it best not to use carbon, except for removing meds, and the odd spot of water clarification.

Ok, my post came in after yours, but you're wasn't there when i started writing it. I have looked at the difference between absorbtion and adsorbtion which I now understand. But my understanding is that if carbon is left in the tank for too long chemicals removed from the water (by whatever method you like) can begin to leech back into the water over time.

 

[raptorrex]

Carbon is used to absorb many impurities in the water, medications and discolouration being a couple of them. You may find some of the water conditioner being absorbed in time, but as it reacts with the chlorine chloramine and heavy metals pretty quickly, it shouldn't be an issue there. To be honest i put it in my filters when i need to and forget about it untill i need to do any treatments.

What you do need to be aware of though is if the same carbon is left in the tank for too long it becomes saturated with the chemicals it has absorbed and they can start to leech back out into the tank.

actually carbon aDsorbs, far more than it aBsorbs. in fact none of the things you mention in your post are aBsorbed, all are aDsorbed. and there is no evidence to suggest that aDsorbed chemicals and heavy metals can leach back into the tank. but as you state aBsorbed items may return to the tank if the carbon is not changed. it must also be remembered that items needed by your tank are also removed by carbon! hence the general consensus that it best not to use carbon, except for removing meds, and the odd spot of water clarification.

Ok, my post came in after yours, but you're wasn't there when i started writing it. I have looked at the difference between absorbtion and adsorbtion which I now understand. But my understanding is that if carbon is left in the tank for too long chemicals removed from the water (by whatever method you like) can begin to leech back into the water over time.

well to de-sorb carbon you need heat, chemicals or both. it is said that you can "reactivate" carbon at temps from 170F, up to about 80%. but the real work starts above 700F. my guess is if the industry needs to use that method, there is not much chance, that an aquarium could do any better. try as i might, i can found no reference to aDsorbed items ever being leached back into a tank. i have found some comments about aBsorbed items returning though. the thing with carbon is, there is no real way to gauge how "full" it is. in the days of less water changes, you could use the yellow strip test, though now that is no good either. Carbon may be the best thing in fish keeping, but it is useless unless you can tell when it needs changed, and that is its main problem.

 

[andywg]

well to de-sorb carbon you need heat, chemicals or both. it is said that you can "reactivate" carbon at temps from 170F, up to about 80%. but the real work starts above 700F. my guess is if the industry needs to use that method, there is not much chance, that an aquarium could do any better. try as i might, i can found no reference to aDsorbed items ever being leached back into a tank. i have found some comments about aBsorbed items returning though. the thing with carbon is, there is no real way to gauge how "full" it is. in the days of less water changes, you could use the yellow strip test, though now that is no good either. Carbon may be the best thing in fish keeping, but it is useless unless you can tell when it needs changed, and that is its main problem.

I'm fairly sure you adopted this line (that carbon will not deadsorb and can be "refreshed" in a odmestic oven) before boboboy, and the comments in return were thus:

First up, a statement by Dr Hovanec, the man whose research helped revolutionise our understanding of how tanks are filtered:

Activated carbon is made by subjecting a base material that is high in carbon content to very high temperatures (about 2,000°F) in a low oxygen atmosphere. The oxygen content is important because too much will cause the material to burn completely resulting in no product; while too little oxygen means no burning at all and, therefore, no activation. Activated carbon that has had all its adsorption sites filled can be reactivated by going through the process again at the same high temperatures. But some people assume they can reactivate the carbon by simply placing it in their kitchen oven at the highest temperature setting, typically 500 to 600°F. This is false. It may burn off some organic material trapped in the carbon but it will not reactivate the adsorption sites. Further, there is a fire hazard potential if the carbon ignites, as you would basically be putting a barbecue in your oven.

Then nmonks pointed out:

On the one hand, oven temperatures should be ample to drive off volatile organic chemicals, such as light oils, alcohols, etc. On the other hand though the very fact that meat and vegetables don't vaporise in the oven should imply that a lot of organic stuff is perfectly able to survive quite high temperatures without evaporating away. Hence, a hot oven probably gets rid of some stuff, but also leaves a lot behind.

In other words, heating in an oven probably extends the life of carbon, but it surely can't return it to its original pristine condition.

My biggest question is not so much whether it works but whether it is cost effective. Is the cost of heating an oven to 200C and baking the carbon for twenty minutes (or whatever) more expensive than simply replacing with new carbon?

Bignose then pointed out:

But carbon can desorb. Just the fact that you even talk about regenerating your carbon in the exact same sentence means that the carbon can be desorbed. Yes, desorbtion occurs more rapidly at higher temperatures, but the rate of desorbtion is not zero at lower room temperatures. Yes, I agree the rate is small, but it is not zero. Carbon sorbtion is an equilbirum process and the chemicals are always sorbing and desorbing -- and some of the desorbed chemicals will not be immediately resorbed. So, again, the rate of desorbing is probably indeed very small, but it is not zero.

Bignose then found some scientific texts on how carbon can deadsorb:

Here are some rebuttals:

Title: Rapid response concentration-controlled desorption of activated carbon to dampen concentration fluctuations
Author(s): Hashisho Z (Hashisho, Zaher), Emamipour H (Emamipour, Hamidreza), Cevallos D (Cevallos, Diego), Rood MJ (Rood, Mark J.), Hay KJ (Hay, K. James), Kim BJ (Kim, Byung J.)
Source: ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY 41 (5): 1753-1758 MAR 1 2007

This is an article that discusses how to keep an air/organic mix at the same concentration the entire time by using adsorption/desorption on carbon. What the researchers do, is have an activated carbon cloth in the pipeline with the air/organic stream. If the concentration of the organic was high, more was adsorbed onto the carbon. If the concentration was low, the carbon would release more organics. The point is, even though the source of the air/organic stream could have variations in its concentration, because of the equilibrium process of adsorption/desorption, as the air stream exited the carbon cloth, the concentration of organics in the air was much more constant. The fluctuations in the concentration were dampened out. Engineers are very interested in information like this so that even though the source of the organic vapors may be unsteady, there is a way that the process can be made steady, and hence easier to control.

Title: Adsorption and desorption of volatile organic compounds in fluidized bed
Author(s): Yazbek W (Yazbek, Wael), Pre P (Pre, Pascaline), Delebarre A (Delebarre, Arnaud)
Source: JOURNAL OF ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEERING-ASCE 132 (5): 442-452 MAY 2006

This was experiments and models predicting the adsorption/desorption of acetone in carbon beds. At room temperature.

I can cite many, many more. The point is, have you studied any physical chemistry? Can you discuss anything about equilibrium processes? Do you know how they behave? adsorption/desorption by its very nature is an equilibrium process, which means that there is always some adsorption occurring and always some desorption occurring. Always. This has been known for quite some time now.

Now, in terms of regenerating carbon after wastewater applications. Companies like Siemens use furnaces to cook the carbon. http/www.usfilter.com/en/Corporate/Techn...echnologies.htm Here is another http/www.mintek.co.za/downloads/Minfurn.pdf If there was a way for the companies to do it at 200 degrees F, why would they waste money in building a furnace?!? Companies do not waste money is there is a cheaper way to do it. Not only cheaper, but no furnaces would also be a lot safer. Another option for regeneration is very strong acid. High concentration of acid with a pH around 3.0 is usually needed, which also is not a very safe method in industrial processes when regenerating tons of carbon. Again, if it only took heating to 200 F, why run the risk of using dangerous acid?!?

All the above are taken from the below thread:

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=187532

Carbon will never be the best thing in fishkeeping. It only removes some of the things that a water change does, not all of them. Therefore a water change can be considered superior, preventing carbon from bceoming best.

 

[raptorrex]

well to de-sorb carbon you need heat, chemicals or both. it is said that you can "reactivate" carbon at temps from 170F, up to about 80%. but the real work starts above 700F. my guess is if the industry needs to use that method, there is not much chance, that an aquarium could do any better. try as i might, i can found no reference to aDsorbed items ever being leached back into a tank. i have found some comments about aBsorbed items returning though. the thing with carbon is, there is no real way to gauge how "full" it is. in the days of less water changes, you could use the yellow strip test, though now that is no good either. Carbon may be the best thing in fish keeping, but it is useless unless you can tell when it needs changed, and that is its main problem.

red and blue cover most things.
there is still no evidence of what is being leached from the carbon, so it is mute as to if it is aBsorbed or aDsorbed content that is leached. sorbtion and desorbtion, covers both processes. and there is still no comment from anyone who keeps fish to say aDsorbed content has ever affected their tank. given the number of people who use it and the amount of threads dedicated to it, dont you think thats odd.

purple was probably my fault. though you need to read it in an odd way to assume i was stating it was the best thing in fish keeping.

i do not and would not use carbon for anything but clearing the water. but it has a massive surface area, if it were possible to judge how full the carbon was, that alone would make it worth using. but as i said unless you can do that, carbon is next to useless.

 

[andywg]

red and blue cover most things.
there is still no evidence of what is being leached from the carbon, so it is mute as to if it is aBsorbed or aDsorbed content that is leached. sorbtion and desorbtion, covers both processes. and there is still no comment from anyone who keeps fish to say aDsorbed content has ever affected their tank. given the number of people who use it and the amount of threads dedicated to it, dont you think thats odd.

As bignose explained, adsorption is an equilibrium process. if the carbon has more DOC's adsorbed than in the water then it will release some into the water to reach equilibrium. We know carbon does deadsorb, as there are plenty of scientific research papers
(including some quoted above) dealing with how it is useful for carbon to both adsorb and deadsorb in the same environment.

Most people who approach fishkeeping in a manner scientific enough to identify that it is deadsorbed content recognise there is next to no benefit in using carbon alongside water changes, and as such don't. Furthermore, no one who uses salt for tetras has ever identified a problem with it. Does that mean I should put salt in my South American tanks because no direct evidence is before me it is bad?

The science states that carbon can deadsorb. It is not likely to be a large enough rate to be a major concern in the aquarium, but there is little doubt that it can and will deadsorb.

purple was probably my fault. though you need to read it in an odd way to assume i was stating it was the best thing in fish keeping.

I was pointing out that your statement in purple cannot be right. There is a much better thing than carbon, that is water changes. Therefore, by pure logic, carbon cannot be the best thing in fishkeeping as we have identified something that is better than carbon, no matter where it ranks. I did not say that you said it is the best; you said it could be, I pointed out why it couldn't.

i do not and would not use carbon for anything but clearing the water. but it has a massive surface area, if it were possible to judge how full the carbon was, that alone would make it worth using. but as i said unless you can do that, carbon is next to useless.

Even if you could judge when it was full, why would we want to buy something that has to be replaced on a weekly basis (or possibly sooner) when we can just change water and do even better? Modern fishkeeping knowledge has made it unnecessary to adsorb organic compounds onto carbon as they are removed through water changes (along with many other things not adsorbed by carbon).

The advantage of carbon is there is little to no chance of doing harm to your tank (unlike tonic salt). However, almost all of the benefits can be obtained cheaper and easier and as such its usefulness must be questioned.