Can Fish Feel?

[Teelie]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Blame the cough syrup for the fuzzy explanation.

 

[anvil63]

No - you'd be hardpressed to convince me that any non-primates have true emotions and definitely no non-mammals

 

[Teelie]

Dolphins, whales and pigs are all mammals that are almost postively identified as having at least a limited emotional capacity. Beyond that, yeah, I'm skeptical but not unconvinciable other animals have emotional capability.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

It's open to debate if they do. At the moment the majority of scientific knowledge is doubtful, or if they do, it's minimal. As to Fella's comment, you don't have to feel pain to feel irritation or something on you to know it's there. That doesn't prove they feel pain, only they can detect something is there that shouldn't be.

Well here is the scientific proof that fish DO feel pain;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2983045.stm

And they can also learn tricks, which shows they have intelligence;

http/www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/...em.php?news=792

And they can also recognise and remember each other;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/4132017.stm

So when it comes down to it, these are not just robotic unfeeling, unthinking and socialy primitive creatures we are keeping, these are highly advanced creatures which are often taken for granted, which at some distant point in the past, we evolved from.
Respect to the fish!

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

No - you'd be hardpressed to convince me that any non-primates have true emotions and definitely no non-mammals

Well how about sheep? Scientists believe they have emotions and are capable of conscious thought;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1641463.stm

It doesn't take much to search the internet to answer your issues with other animals, you'd be suprised at how seriously advanced other animals are- it is in fact, its believed to be a primitive way of veiwing the world as a human being, to look down on other forms of life if they do not resemble humans some how in physical appearance.
Scientists that have devoted their lives to the understanding of life on earth are making new discoverys all the time, humans are very insiginificant in many respects to what else is out there- we have very few senses, we cannot see hardly any types of colors in comparsion to so many other forms of life out there, we cannot see heat and smell, taste smell or pick up other creatures electrical auras etc etc....
There is so much to life, thats an understatement .

 

[fishing4exotics]

I have seen fish go through trauma after losing their breeding partner. It might not be the same emotions that humans process. Some species of fish that I have kept and bred lose their appetite and I notice that they don't exhibit the same territorial aggression. This is a temporary behavior for most of the species that I have observed. For some species that have a life long partner it is permanent.

 

[sylvia]

Senscing pain and feeling emotions are defined as seperate things (as I think has been established)... though it would be relatively simple to argue they both are physical actualy (assuming you don't believe in a god or similar supernatural power/deity/spirit/soul) and I'd probably take that stance if I looked into it deeply (but lets not get into that).

I agree that fish must feel physical pain. It's a survival mechanism most animals do appear to posess. This doesn't, however, necessarily mean they'll show it nor that all species feel it. I find it somewhat annoying that people group 'fish' altogether (though I appreciate there's little choice and wouldn't claim to offer any alternatives ) because they are so wide-ranging in size and intelligence it seems somewhat stupid to generalise. I suppose the same is applicable to mammals - bats, echidnas, humans and blue whales seem to demonstrate the extremes pretty nicely for that last group . My point is that just because some fish can feel pain, doesn't necessarily mean all can - though I think it's likely they do.

I also agree wholeheartedly with the people saying other animals can feel emotion. I don't agree entirely with some of the examples brought up but that's another matter which I won't discuss. I once saw a documentary about elephants which showed the animals' reactions to the death of a herdmate (for lack of a better word). They went over the body, feeling it with their trunks and walked around it, looking at it etc. It seemed very much like they were mourning or wandering what happened to their family member. I find it difficult to explain this behaviour using something other than emotion - they weren't gaining anything physical from their behaviour, that's definite. If you own a dog, surely you don't think your pet is a mindless, unemotional creature (though, if you made me do it, I could tell you how I'd argue that point )? The view that non-primate creatures show no emotions seems pretty ubsurd to me regardles.

Someone also mentioned 'conscious thought' at some point - most animals have the ability to think consciously. I don't see the point you were making. If you look at animals, you'll see they can actively solve problems. Think of chimps using tools, raccoons learning to open the lid of a garbage can or parrots doing puzzles.

Whether fish feel emotion or not is another matter entirely. I am tempted to say they do but I could readily argue they don't. Most fish behaviour can easily be explained as being instinctive or based on instinct. Someone mentioned fish coming forward and 'begging' for food. the idea that the 'beg' is purely of human creation. You feed your fish regularly so they know you are the source of food. When they see you coming, they instinctively move closer to you - towards the food. Shure, they recognise you and it may look like their 'begging' but this doesn't mean they experience emotion.
Also, if you look at the phsychological or scientific definition of 'stress', you realise the way people use the word now-a-days implies a slightly different meaning as stress is actualy to do with physical responses. Stress is something we talk about in reference to fish all the time - that's why I brought it up. They deffinately experience stress - but not necesarily in an emotional sense. We, for one, see the physical effects and, as a result of the physical, behavioural changes.
I could keep going with this stuff - all very interesting - but I won't I'm supposed to go to bed early today (yeah right).

 

[fish4meplz]

Personally i do think they can feel whyy shouldnt they and if the aspca wasnt doing something about it i bet someone was. I think they can feel because when they get some deases the rub up against rocks or other rough surfaces, why would they do that unless they felt it.

 

[Teelie]

So when it comes down to it, these are not just robotic unfeeling, unthinking and socialy primitive creatures we are keeping, these are highly advanced creatures which are often taken for granted, which at some distant point in the past, we evolved from.
Respect to the fish!

I never said that, and I don't like your implying I said that either. You are taking two wholly different concepts and muddling them into one.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

So when it comes down to it, these are not just robotic unfeeling, unthinking and socialy primitive creatures we are keeping, these are highly advanced creatures which are often taken for granted, which at some distant point in the past, we evolved from.
Respect to the fish!

I never said that, and I don't like your implying I said that either. You are taking two wholly different concepts and muddling them into one.

Sorry if i sounded like i was implying it as i wasn't trying to, i was just making a general point, but i felt like you needed to see come solid proof so i gave you some .

 

[Synirr]

No - you'd be hardpressed to convince me that any non-primates have true emotions and definitely no non-mammals

As sylvia said, elephants mourn their dead, dolphins are capable of recognising themselves in mirrors, and some parrots are capable of learning human speech to the extent that they can speak in sentences and express abstract concepts such as love. Enough said? It's foolish to think primates are the only animals that evolved intelligence and emotion as survival mechanisms. Emotions such as love are a great way to ensure genes pass through the generations, as family members who are emotionally linked will look out for one-another and protect one-another from danger. Emotion isn't some magical thing only people have, it has a biological basis.

So uh, back to the topic

I believe there have been studies that identified pain receptors in portions of the bodies of certain fish (like in the mouths of salmon,) so I think it's pretty clear some species can feel pain, but whether or not they can experience it is the issue, I think. The jury is still out on that one where scientific evidence is concerned and it may always be, but from what I've seen in my own fish I certainly believe they do have at least some limited emotion, which would indicate the ability to suffer.

By way of example, I had a breeding pair of Betta imbellis a while back, and one day I noticed the male displaying some very abnormal behaviour. He was displaying vertical striping and just sitting at the top of his tank, which I had never seen him do.... it was only then that I began looking for the female and discovered that she had jumped out of the tank and was dead on the floor. Water stats were perfect as usual, nothing else had changed except that the male's mate was gone. He stayed like this for several days before finally perking up a bit. I got him a new female and he was very excited and friendly toward her the first day, but he never once tried to spawn with her, not once. Conditions were perfect for breeding, so I suppose he just didn't like her at much as the first female

 

[fishing4exotics]

I had a breeding pair of Texas cichlids ( tetracanthus ) in my 240 community tank. After the female died the male lost his will to protect their usual spawning site. He no longer picked on the other cichids ( he was the alpha fish ). And he didn't eat for 3 days. They were a large breeding pair ( 13" male, 9" female ) that have been together for about 2 years. Just one example of odd behavior of a few that I have observed with paired fish.

 

[andywg]

It is well known that fish have pain receptors and do react to physical injury, but the technical definition of feeling pain also accounts for the emotional distress of injury.

Fish do not posess the area of the brain in which pain is dealt with. Most of this thread has confirmed that fish are aware of "taking damage" which is a fairly obvious thing to say. There is still scant evidence to suggest they deal with the emotional side to pain anything like higher vertebrates (not that I am saying they can't).

The problem is the lack of any experiments designed to test whether or not some types of fish bahviour are governed by procedural or declarative representations.

However, the papaers coming out and found through Google Scholar (a better place to get info for this discussion than BBC news I fear) would suggest the scientific community is coming around to the opinion that fish do suffer some emotional distress from physical injury. I daresay it is a matter of time before the community comes close to agreement on this.

 

[OohFeeshy]

More the question is, how do you know you're not the only human capable of thinking? How do you know that your thoughts are indeed private? How do you know that everyone around you aren't capable of communicating telepathicly? Answer- you don't. Not unless they told you, in which case, they could be lying. Or indeed, robots. So I think it's a bit stupid to be saying 'Fish/reptiles/anything other than humans lack thinking skills/emotion/whatever' when, really, you have no idea even if humans do.

 

[ncjharris]

From memory, the legal arguement (certianly in this country) is whether the life form is sentinent, and that is described as one with a backbone.
Hence the reason the feeding of live food is illeagal.