Can dogs be vegetarian (split from thread "Feeding cichlids and other fish meat")

[Valkyrie_Lips]

No. I prefer not to. This is not the topic of this thread and I don't want to further hijack it.

Since there is a new thread for this discussion, maybe now you could share some of the many reasons you're referring to for dogs to avoid meat.

 

[connorlindeman]

Since there is a new thread for this discussion, maybe now you could share some of the many reasons you're referring to for dogs to avoid meat.

Based on previous experiences I would prefer not to.

 

[Valkyrie_Lips]

Dogs are still descended from wolves, and wild canids live primarily on meat. It's cruel to get an animal that lives mostly on meat then force an un-natural diet onto it based on your own belief system. Don't want anything to do with meat? Then don't get a dog or a cat. Buy a herbivore for a pet. Look into your dog's mouth and tell me that he's meant to be living on plant matter alone. Their entire physiology demonstrates that they're primarily carnivorous, and omnivorous in practice.

I find it revolting when people force their personal beliefs on their pets. Many cats have died because their idiot owners forced them onto a veg only diet, and while dogs can survive without meat, it's still disgusting to me to do that to an animal for the above reasons. Get a pet rabbit if your principles extend to your pets, don't mistreat a dog for selfish reasons.

EXACTLY. Dogs are part of the order Carnivorous for a reason and that reason is that meat is a integral part of their diets.

 

[connorlindeman]

I will however link two more studies

Vegetarian versus Meat-Based Diets for Companion Animals

Companion animal owners are increasingly concerned about the links between degenerative health conditions, farm animal welfare problems, environmental degradation, fertilizers and herbicides, climate change, and causative factors; such as animal farming and the consumption of animal products...

www.mdpi.com

An experimental meat-free diet maintained haematological characteristics in sprint-racing sled dogs - PubMed

A dog's nutrient requirements can theoretically be met from a properly balanced meat-free diet; however, proof for this is lacking. Exercise places additional demands on the body, and dogs fed a meat-free diet may be at increased risk of developing sports anaemia. We hypothesised that exercising...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Valkyrie_Lips]

Based on previous experiences I would prefer not to.

Fair enough. To me it sounds like you don't actually have any good, evidence based reasons to support your argument.

 

[connorlindeman]

Fair enough. To me it sounds like you don't actually have any good, evidence based reasons to support your argument.

I linked two more studies

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I will however link two more studies

Vegetarian versus Meat-Based Diets for Companion Animals

Companion animal owners are increasingly concerned about the links between degenerative health conditions, farm animal welfare problems, environmental degradation, fertilizers and herbicides, climate change, and causative factors; such as animal farming and the consumption of animal products...

www.mdpi.com

An experimental meat-free diet maintained haematological characteristics in sprint-racing sled dogs - PubMed

A dog's nutrient requirements can theoretically be met from a properly balanced meat-free diet; however, proof for this is lacking. Exercise places additional demands on the body, and dogs fed a meat-free diet may be at increased risk of developing sports anaemia. We hypothesised that exercising...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

First study says nothing about a vegetarian based diet being better for dogs or cats, nor that a meat based diet poses any more risks than a vegetarian based diet. Merely that some owners want a vegetarian based diet for ethical concerns such as factory farming and climate change - nothing to do with the animals health.

"Problems with all of these dietary choices have been documented, including nutritional inadequacies and health problems. However, a significant and growing body of population studies and case reports have indicated that cats and dogs maintained on vegetarian diets may be healthy—including those exercising at the highest levels—and, indeed, may experience a range of health benefits. Such diets must be nutritionally complete and reasonably balanced, however, and owners should regularly monitor urinary acidity and should correct urinary alkalinisation through appropriate dietary additives, if necessary"

Are you regularly testing your dog's urinary output? Adjusting her intake as needed? Has she been on a vegetarian (or vegan even?) diet her entire life?

So this study is neither for nor against a meat or vegetable based diet, only that all nutritional needs must be met, and all have potential problems. Duh. I'll check out the second study when I get time.

 

[connorlindeman]

First study says nothing about a vegetarian based diet being better for dogs or cats, nor that a meat based diet poses any more risks than a vegetarian based diet. Merely that some owners want a vegetarian based diet for ethical concerns such as factory farming and climate change - nothing to do with the animals health.

"Problems with all of these dietary choices have been documented, including nutritional inadequacies and health problems. However, a significant and growing body of population studies and case reports have indicated that cats and dogs maintained on vegetarian diets may be healthy—including those exercising at the highest levels—and, indeed, may experience a range of health benefits. Such diets must be nutritionally complete and reasonably balanced, however, and owners should regularly monitor urinary acidity and should correct urinary alkalinisation through appropriate dietary additives, if necessary"

Are you regularly testing your dog's urinary output? Adjusting her intake as needed? Has she been on a vegetarian (or vegan even?) diet her entire life?

So this study is neither for nor against a meat or vegetable based diet, only that all nutritional needs must be met, and all have potential problems. Duh. I'll check out the second study when I get time.

Sorry about that. I accidentally pasted the wrong article.

I don't have the dog anymore unfortunately. When I was about 11 I had to give her up because we were moving and couldn't take her with us.

We got her when she was 6 months old and started her off vegan. She developed a hip problem so we added eggs to her diet. The problem fixed itself.

 

[connorlindeman]

Something intersting:
Bramble held the Guinness World Record for being the world's oldest dog. Bramble lived on an exclusively vegetarian diet of organic vegetables, rice, and lentils.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Sorry about that. I accidentally pasted the wrong article.

I don't have the dog anymore unfortunately. When I was about 11 I had to give her up because we were moving and couldn't take her with us.

We got her when she was 6 months old and started her off vegan. She developed a hip problem so we added eggs to her diet. The problem fixed itself.

But why even get a dog if you want an all vegan household?? It makes no sense to me. But, I realise that this must have been your parents decision and not yours, so not trying to beat you up about it. I'm sorry that you had to say goodbye to your childhood pet, that's really rough.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Something intersting:
Bramble held the Guinness World Record for being the world's oldest dog. Bramble lived on an exclusively vegetarian diet of organic vegetables, rice, and lentils.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, especially when breeding plays a huge part in lifespan, not just diet (e.g: giant breeds much shorter lived due to heart trying to support giant build, while chi's tend to be the longest lived breed). Bramble has also been over-taken as the longest lived dog;

Oldest dog ever

The Guinness World Records Official site with ultimate record-breaking facts & achievements. Do you want to set a world record? Are you Officially Amazing?

www.guinnessworldrecords.com

 

[connorlindeman]

But why even get a dog if you want an all vegan household?? It makes no sense to me. But, I realise that this must have been your parents decision and not yours, so not trying to beat you up about it. I'm sorry that you had to say goodbye to your childhood pet, that's really rough.

Yes it was my parent's decision.
We are still in contact with the new owner and she occasionally sends up pictures. She is still healthy even though she's nearly 11.
We got to visit her a few years ago and she still remembered us! When we were leaving she tried to get in the car with us

 

[connorlindeman]

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, especially when breeding plays a huge part in lifespan, not just diet (e.g: giant breeds much shorter lived due to heart trying to support giant build, while chi's tend to be the longest lived breed). Bramble has also been over-taken as the longest lived dog;

Oldest dog ever

The Guinness World Records Official site with ultimate record-breaking facts & achievements. Do you want to set a world record? Are you Officially Amazing?

www.guinnessworldrecords.com

I do understand that, but the fact that the dog was vegetarian shows that done right, it is possible for a dog to be vegetarian and healthy and long-lived at the same time.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I do understand that, but the fact that the dog was vegetarian shows that done right, it is possible for a dog to be vegetarian and healthy and long-lived at the same time.

Possible doesn't mean it's the best thing for the dog. It would be possible for us to survive on a tasteless prepared nutrient paste, but that doesn't mean we'd enjoy it or be better off on the paste than on a nutrient balanced healthy, varied diet. We'd certainly enjoy the latter a great deal more, too.

The majority of dogs are highly food motivated. Most of the behaviours we've bred them to utilise are all part of their hunting strategies to boot. We kept the tracking traits in our scent hounds. The stalking and freezing in collies and pointers. The chase and bite/kill in hunting dogs like bull breeds and ratting dogs. Hunting behaviours are ingrained in them, we've just shaped them for our own purposes. Watch a terrier ratting, and you'll see what wild dogs are really like.

Dogs are strongly food motivated. They get enjoyment out of food, they're prepared to work for it. I personally think it's cruel to deprive them of such a big part of their diet, for human purposes. I feed my dog a chunk of apple, carrot or a green bean for a treat at times, sure, and she snaps them down. But I've never seen a dog go wild for that the way they do when making liver treats, or cooking bacon. When a dog is less motivated in training sessions, we recommend using "high value" treats over less exciting ones like pre-prepared dog treats. High value treats tend to be things like dried liver, fresh chicken, or cheese. Strong smelling, meaty, or rich and fatty like cheese. In the animal kingdom as a whole, the liver is one of the prize parts of the animal for many species, because of the nutrition it contains. When orcas kill a great white, they often eat only the liver and leave the rest.

I realise that this is your parents choice, and not recessarily yours. But since you're defending it as being the better option and it's become a thread, gotta challenge that I'm sure your folks had good intentions. It's not to knock them at all. But you're of an age that you should be aware by now that parents are not flawless, and make plenty of mistakes too. We all look up to our parents as being THE authority when we're children, that's how we've evolved to survive as well. But as we mature we come to learn that our parents are flawed adults who don't have all the answers any more than we do. We all just do our best with the knowledge we think we have at the time, but we all make mistakes too.

To debate the topic though, evidence and logic is required. Dogs are omnivores, and primarily carnivores. So why keep them on the diet of a herbivore? Why deprive them of something that is such a big part of their natural diet? "they can survive on it" isn't a good enough answer for me I'm afraid.

If the concerns are the ethics around commercial meat, then the answer is to not get a meat-eating pet. That's being selfish, not principled.

 

[connorlindeman]

Possible doesn't mean it's the best thing for the dog. It would be possible for us to survive on a tasteless prepared nutrient paste, but that doesn't mean we'd enjoy it or be better off on the paste than on a nutrient balanced healthy, varied diet. We'd certainly enjoy the latter a great deal more, too.

The majority of dogs are highly food motivated. Most of the behaviours we've bred them to utilise are all part of their hunting strategies to boot. We kept the tracking traits in our scent hounds. The stalking and freezing in collies and pointers. The chase and bite/kill in hunting dogs like bull breeds and ratting dogs. Hunting behaviours are ingrained in them, we've just shaped them for our own purposes. Watch a terrier ratting, and you'll see what wild dogs are really like.

Dogs are strongly food motivated. They get enjoyment out of food, they're prepared to work for it. I personally think it's cruel to deprive them of such a big part of their diet, for human purposes. I feed my dog a chunk of apple, carrot or a green bean for a treat at times, sure, and she snaps them down. But I've never seen a dog go wild for that the way they do when making liver treats, or cooking bacon. When a dog is less motivated in training sessions, we recommend using "high value" treats over less exciting ones like pre-prepared dog treats. High value treats tend to be things like dried liver, fresh chicken, or cheese. Strong smelling, meaty, or rich and fatty like cheese. In the animal kingdom as a whole, the liver is one of the prize parts of the animal for many species, because of the nutrition it contains. When orcas kill a great white, they often eat only the liver and leave the rest.

I realise that this is your parents choice, and not recessarily yours. But since you're defending it as being the better option and it's become a thread, gotta challenge that I'm sure your folks had good intentions. It's not to knock them at all. But you're of an age that you should be aware by now that parents are not flawless, and make plenty of mistakes too. We all look up to our parents as being THE authority when we're children, that's how we've evolved to survive as well. But as we mature we come to learn that our parents are flawed adults who don't have all the answers any more than we do. We all just do our best with the knowledge we think we have at the time, but we all make mistakes too.

To debate the topic though, evidence and logic is required. Dogs are omnivores, and primarily carnivores. So why keep them on the diet of a herbivore? Why deprive them of something that is such a big part of their natural diet? "they can survive on it" isn't a good enough answer for me I'm afraid.

If the concerns are the ethics around commercial meat, then the answer is to not get a meat-eating pet. That's being selfish, not principled.

I am deffinetly not the type of person to accept anything as gospel just because It comes from higher authority. I do thoughtful research on boths sides of an argument and choose the side with the most convincing proof.


So why keep them on the diet of a herbivore?
I refrain from eating meat, not because of the ethics surrounding the meat industry but because of the unhealthfulness of the meat.
Why would I feed my dog meat if I personally wouldn't eat it? If its bad for my body, its bad for theirs as well. And if there is an alternative route why not take it?