caffeine thought for today… city mouse, or country mouse???

[Magnum Man39 153]

so I live on Mrs. family’s 100 year old farm… where the closest neighbor is over a mile away, so we don’t even have curtains on the windows, yet some folks are happy enough to live in big cities or in a trailer park, with neighbors 20 feet away…wondering if fish are a lot like us, we need to avoid the fish that want their closest neighbor to be a mile away, or the aquarium just becomes a specimen tank…

for humans, I think this is learned behavior, within our species… this makes me wonder… if non schooling “fish” were raised from babies in a very “cave rich” environment, that they would accept neighbors closer than if they were raised in a hidy hole barren tank???

I’m thinking along the lines of a shell dweller, I assume ( as I’ve never kept them ) that if there are good homes pretty closely together, that they will take them despite being maybe too close for comfort???

this obviously assumes the tank is large enough, and there may be predatory fish, that wouldn’t tolerate a neighbor, no mater how far away, and some fish aren’t looking for a “shell” but maybe a space in the thick weeds… I know with trying to find a mate for my yellow acara, that sometimes just not seeing them is enough, I have a smaller one that lives predominantly on just the other side of a big plastic plant leaf, only inches apart, from big momma… this train of thought, comes from the new cichlid caves I just got, for my Juvenal dwarf cichlids, and wondering how many is too many???

thoughts…

 

[Jennet18 76]

Interesting thought. When I had cichlids in late 80's I gave them plenty of hideaway areas created by things like beach cobbles and some flat ones that I could form a top from, plus ornaments bought from my lfs as well as plants etc. including a few plastic ones that they could not easily shred. They were all small fish when I first bought them, but luckily the lfs staff were reasonably informed and guided me to get ones that would be similar size once grown and all small for cichlids. In my two 4 foot tanks in the 70's I had angel fish and only kept 4 in there at any time.

In my community tank I loved to see lots of fish of different sizes making the most of the space available. Again, the same lfs used their knowledge to help me/us (ex husband) set up the aquarium to provide plenty of bang for our buck without the fish being overcrowded. We even kept tetra's in the same tank as guppies, as by then over here the tetra's had adapted somewhat to the hard water. Probably living shorter lives, yes, but we did not know any better at the time.

I have been using the aquarium stocker to look up compatible tank mates for my 80 litre, that seems to go not only on water parameters but also the temperament of the fish. I will probably stock a few less than the amount it shows going close to the 'full' mark, as that is my way.

 

[GaryE]

I think there really is something here, but as usual, it gets complicated. Crowding is relative. If you look at some streams, they're teeming with fish. Friends who've fished in South America talk of huge shoals, and underwater footage of places like Lake Malawi show massive populations on the underwater rock islands. Those fish know how to get along and live socially, and are lost and confused when kept solo. So much of what they do and are relates to others of their species.

Go to most streams and populations are sparser. The Cichlids, even small ones, want space. A pair of common kribs (P pulcher) can hold 9 square metres, according to a report I once read. That's a lot. They'll tolerate subadults moving though. I stood knee deep in a Chromidotilapia kingsleyae stream, and they were darting all around, displaying but not fighting. But they're mouthbrooding Cichlids, and ARE their own territories.

Big predators have a food problem, and they hate starving, understandably. So they tend to distrust their own species and run them off. They have to, to survive.

Somewhere long this road, learning and instinct become entwined, for us and them.

 

[Tomsfish17 60]

There are different dynamics that effect the idea of crowding.
I have been a crowder before with some fish. 
I once had what I called the ram ranch which was a 40b with 15 pairs of GBR/EBR.
Surprisingly with each fish having a mate the tank ran pretty smooth.
The dynamics that affected this set up were if a mate died the other stood little chance over time in the tank.
And breeding. All eggs had to be removed ASAP or all **** broke loose.
If I missed a set of eggs, it would become very apparent within 24 hours with ensuing hostility and defense.
It was an interesting and attractive experiment that lasted close to a year before I switched things up.

 

[TwoTankAmin32]

My experience has been mostly with plecos. The males are territorial and well claim a cave and then defend it. My solution to keeping the peace was to provide a ton of caves, cocks and slate plus wood. The idea was to make it possible for the loser in a fight to escape the sight if of the winner. As long as the two could see each other the hostility would not stop, But if the "loser" could flee and hide, the victor lost interest- out of sight, out of mind.

What I discovered was I could have more fish in a given tank if I created lots of hiding places. The downside to this was that catching fish, especially fry usually meant breaking the tank down to bare glass and substrate. Everything else had to be removed. Plecos are natural hiders especially the smaller size species.

The females also had a pecking order. Only the top females got to spawn with the top males. However, there was less violence to settle things among the gals. Males will fight to the death in some cases but I never saw anything close to this with the females.

What was interesting is the biology involved, It takes a female about two weeks to produce a batch of eggs, But the makes who raised the offspring once the eggs were present and fertilized. It takes about a month between spawning and when free swimming fry are leaving the cave. Dad are very protective and rarely leave the cave obnce in dad mode. But, they will try to sneak out for food if they get the chance.

When they do this the females lower in the pecking order who normally wont get a chance to spawn may try for their chance bu going into the cave and eating the eggs or wigglers. Once a dad loses the spawn he is ready to spawn again. Since the top females who usually do the spawning are not yet ready to go again, the lower ranked female has a chance.

I have watched a dad defend the cave against females and watched the females set up nearby waiting for theor chance. of course the females would be squabling as to who might get the chance. It is much different trying to observe all of the in the wild than it is in the confines of tank. My original proven breeding group of 13 zebra plecos along with 5 fry went into a 30gal breeder tank. 36Lx18Wx13H inches. This was the tank when the arrived, The pants came out not long after as they were there to insure there were no possible cycling issues.

All of the spawning took place in the two slate caves on the right end of the tank. I actually cjanged the set-up some early on and put in even more cover.

I watched a dad defend his cave and the spawn inside it from several gals who kept trying to get in. You can just make out the gals behind the clamshell cave to the left of the defending dad.

Because my water is basically neutral pH and soft, I have never kept any of the Rift Lake African cichlids. So I have never observed their behavior. I did keep a pair of African riverine cichlids for a while . They were Pseudocrenilabrus nicholsi. I was given them so I could observer mouth brooding. Apparently, these small cichlids are considered to be one of the nastiest chichlid species. They got their own 15 gal. well planted tank and they were quite pretty and definitely very nasty.

The zebras lived pretty close together but also had the privacy and cover they needed. They still did fight now and then. However, in general the amount of hiding places and the ability it created for the fish not to see each other prevented constant warfare from happening.

 

[Back in the fold]

Ah . . . . to live miles from the nearest neighbors . I would exult in that situation . I don’t like crowds and I don’t like fish that tolerate crowds with the one exception being my Endler’s . There’s an episode of Star Trek where the people live on a planet that is way overpopulated and it drives the people either numb or crazy . I can understand that .

 

[Tomsfish17 60]

My experience has been mostly with plecos. The males are territorial and well claim a cave and then defend it. My solution to keeping the peace was to provide a ton of caves, cocks and slate plus wood. The idea was to make it possible for the loser in a fight to escape the sight if of the winner. As long as the two could see each other the hostility would not stop, But if the "loser" could flee and hide, the victor lost interest- out of sight, out of mind.

Somewhere long ago I was told to keep a minimum of 1 more cave than cave dwelling fish so the loser has a place to recoup.
You can't expect the loser to be bold enough to move into the old place of the alpha that just beat him up~!
My super reds have a hierarchy for breeding tubes that even my clown loaches don't mess with.

 

[TwoTankAmin32]

My clown loaches killed the small group of albino BN I tried to put into their tank that was close to 20 years ago. I still have a few of those clowns.

 

[GaryE]

Ah . . . . to live miles from the nearest neighbors . I would exult in that situation . I don’t like crowds and I don’t like fish that tolerate crowds with the one exception being my Endler’s . There’s an episode of Star Trek where the people live on a planet that is way overpopulated and it drives the people either numb or crazy . I can understand that .

It's funny, eh? I lived for close to a year in a village of 300 people, spread out and very rural. Everyone was into everyone else's business, they all belonged to Christian Churches that seemed to hate each other, and to city mouse me, it felt like all anyone ever did was look for things to judge as wrong. Those people seemed so bored. I was delighted to get back to a crowded city where I could be anonymous if I wanted to be, and could choose which neighbours I got to know and which I was content to have looking at me like I was a passing shadow.

I never thought of applying that experience to how I look at aquarium communities. Are my single species tanks like those groups that leaned so hard on their young members to conform and looked down on everyone different? What am I doing to my beloved fish?!? Yikes. Maybe I should create crowded communities with super diverse populations of fish from Asia, Africa and South America together. Maybe I need to add some powdered chili peppers to my flake food to bring some life to the fish in my aquariums.

I don't know about this comparing human communities to fish idea.

Now I'm worried as a fish breeder. If I'm making villages, am I trying to get my fish to be parents before the age of 18 the way so many were in that village? I've often wondered about the ethics and morality of how we keep fish, but this has added an entire new wrinkle.

 

[Back in the fold]

I've often wondered about the ethics and morality of how we keep fish, but this has added an entire new wrinkle.

I have ALWAYS wondered if keeping fish , birds and reptiles is ethical or moral . Why do I breed fish that are going to die in a short time anyway ? Why do I keep these creatures cooped up in a jail ? Why do I subject them to my momentary lapses in care ? Why do I waste resources maintaining this hobby ? Yeah , I know , if it wasn’t me then it would be someone else and that guy might treat them worse .
The tropical fish hobby shouldn’t exist . We should be using our time to help our fellow man but I , for one , don’t . It’s a selfish interest.

 

[GaryE]

I have ALWAYS wondered if keeping fish , birds and reptiles is ethical or moral . Why do I breed fish that are going to die in a short time anyway ? Why do I keep these creatures cooped up in a jail ? Why do I subject them to my momentary lapses in care ? Why do I waste resources maintaining this hobby ? Yeah , I know , if it wasn’t me then it would be someone else and that guy might treat them worse .
The tropical fish hobby shouldn’t exist . We should be using our time to help our fellow man but I , for one , don’t . It’s a selfish interest.

It is. I learn a lot, but that stays in my own head, mostly. All creatures have that one life to live, and at least I do my best to keep the ones here in as good a way as I can manage.

 

[Back in the fold]

I do my best to keep the ones here in as good a way as I can manage.

We owe them that .

 

[TwoTankAmin32]

Yes we are awful people, We give our fish better and more regular food than they will get in the wild- this is a horrible thing to do.

When a fish get sick in the wild, it usually dies. How dare we give them meds to save them.

In the wild many fish are food for other creatures. Giving our fish a life without such a threat isn't fair. They deserve to have the opportunity of being eaten.

And in our tanks we deprive the opportunity for our fish to suffer the effects of potential episodes of dought and pollution.

And if we keep rare fish and breed them after they have been eradicated in the wild are we not playing god? May we burn in hell for doing this.......

The very first fish auction I attended had a tank with two huge Pacus in it at the entrance to the room where the auction was held. They were to be auctioned. They were the last item that went up for bids. There was only one bidder and he bought them very cheaply. He bought them to have for dinner. In the wild. Large clown loaches are eaten by the local people.

 

[Tomsfish17 60]

Yes we are awful people, We give our fish better and more regular food than they will get in the wild- this is a horrible thing to do.

When a fish get sick in the wild, it usually dies. How dare we give them meds to save them.

In the wild many fish are food for other creatures. Giving our fish a life without such a threat isn't fair. They deserve to have the opportunity of being eaten.

And in our tanks we deprive the opportunity for our fish to suffer the effects of potential episodes of dought and pollution.

And if we keep rare fish and breed them after they have been eradicated in the wild are we not playing god? May we burn in hell for doing this.......

The very first fish auction I attended had a tank with two huge Pacus in it at the entrance to the room where the auction was held. They were to be auctioned. They were the last item that went up for bids. There was only one bidder and he bought them very cheaply. He bought them to have for dinner. In the wild. Large clown loaches are eaten by the local people.

It's not just large fish.
Before the Galaxy rasbora was discovered and became popular it too was a food source for the locals also.
You got be pretty hungry to eat fish that small....

 

[TwoTankAmin32]

When I did my visit to a few of the European countries in the early 1980s the first stop was the UK. There I was introduced to eating Whitebait.

From the Google AI
Whitebait is a collective term for tiny, immature fish fry, usually 25 to 50 mm (1 to 2 inches) long. Because they are so small, the entire fish is eaten whole—including the head, fins, bones, and guts. The specific species and culinary uses vary greatly around the world. United Kingdom & Europe: Commonly young sprats, herring, or sardines caught in coastal waters or estuaries.