C02 Levels & Plants

You do only have a few small plants in the tank which aren't by themselves going to produce a whole lot of oxygen for the fish. A good way to tell if your fish are receiving sufficient O2 in the water is to watch and see if they go to the surface for air or if they stay submerged and breath there. If your fish are not surfacing then there is enough. If you turn off your bubbler for 20 minutes and watch your fish this will tell you if the rippling as it is provides enough surface agitation.
I don't really want to turn it off as I'm now of the opinion that the airstone staying on is absolutely essential. I was just wondering whether the rippling seemed sufficient enough. If I recall correctly, there was more than one fish gasping on the day I chose to turn the air stone off to provide more c02 for the plants. Now, with the airstone on, there is one fish gasping but because it has had discolouration from day one and a white thread attached to its lower jaw, I'd rather believe there is a problem with the fish rather than believe there is a tank issue.

Nevertheless, in video 2 I did switch the air pump off briefly to show you how much ripple effect is created by the filtration outlet pipe; does it look to you like there is enough water movement?
 
Based on my opinion...which could be wrong since I have a lot more rippling (which may skew what I'm used to seeing as sufficient) is that there isn't enough there...BUT...if the fish aren't all seeking oxygen from the surface than that's the indication that it is fine.
 
Your lighting is far too high for your setup :). You have high lighting, and the tank is only sparsely planted with not the best choice of plants. The easiest thing I'd say to do is reduce the lighting to something like 1 T8 bulb (but maybe increase the photoperiod a little) and change the plants to something a little faster growing but can do well in low light, like java fern. You could still keep the Anubias and the Cryptocoryne if you put the crypt in a pot of soil, sand or fine gravel and dosed the tank with some simple iron and trace fertiliser (like Seachem Flourish, Easylife Profito or Tropica Plant Nutrition) at a weekly 50% water change.

It also looks like to me as if you need to increase water flow, how much do you have overall?

You could also instead fill the tank with floating plants, they would reduce the light underneath and keep your water in pristene condition for the fish. The elodea (Egeria densa) would die this way but the other plants would do OK, fertiliser would help here too.
 
Your lighting is far too high for your setup :). You have high lighting, and the tank is only sparsely planted with not the best choice of plants. The easiest thing I'd say to do is reduce the lighting to something like 1 T8 bulb (but maybe increase the photoperiod a little) and change the plants to something a little faster growing but can do well in low light, like java fern. You could still keep the Anubias and the Cryptocoryne if you put the crypt in a pot of soil, sand or fine gravel and dosed the tank with some simple iron and trace fertiliser (like Seachem Flourish, Easylife Profito or Tropica Plant Nutrition) at a weekly 50% water change.

It also looks like to me as if you need to increase water flow, how much do you have overall?

You could also instead fill the tank with floating plants, they would reduce the light underneath and keep your water in pristene condition for the fish. The elodea (Egeria densa) would die this way but the other plants would do OK, fertiliser would help here too.

Unfortunately, I cannot switch to using 1 T8 bulb has the lights only initiate if there are two bulbs inserted which are not flat. If one goes flat or if one is missing, the other functioning bulb will stay off until the issue with the other bulb is fixed etc.

Waterflow cannot be maximised or turned down as theres nothing to control the flow. The outlet pipe of the filtration pump can be positioned differently but that will only change the amount of water agitation.

The slow-growing plants are actually doing very well as there's a lot of root and leaf growth taking place on the cryptocoryne and anubias, however the Elodea has fast growing shoots seemingly growing towards the light with some 50% transparent leaves towards the bottom areas, so maybe there is some sort of issue there.

I've never been a fan of floating plants but thank you for the suggestion :)



One other question I have relates to drop-checkers..

Are they able to measure the influence of liquid c02 in the water? A forum user said that liquid c02 disappears after 24 hours so presumably I'd be wasting money watching my c02 levels like a hawk? In addition, the fish have no oxygen issue, it is more a gill fluke problem which is causing some of them to gasp which I am trying to remedy now.
 
Man this is a wierd post and got me reading. lol.

The only one who's addressed the issue seems to be threefingers but I'll go through other little things I noticed too (I have read all posts before replying for a change ;) )

I'm completely new to planted aquariums and was curious as to whether a certain c02 level (while possibly good for the plants) can cause fish to suffocate?

Of course there is Co2 is toxic at a certain ppm. Where exactly that is is unknown but 30ppm is the suggested 'top' average

I've been looking into the Redfield Ratio and it suggests out of Phosphate and Nitrate, C02 is most essential. Should I really follow this ratio given that I have a lot of fish that need a lot of oxygen rather than c02?
Forget the ratio. Don't think that O and CO2 are related in anyway. Just because you have CO2 does not mean you have less O. You can pump in all the CO2 you want but there will still be O. they are seperate.

I personally don't use CO2 due to my lighting but I believe those that use CO2 disperse it during the day while the plants are photosynthesizing.
The majority do but some run 24/7 for a variety of reasons. I have done both to no ill effect.

Since respiration never stops and photosynthesis does, you can see how there's a CO2 buildup at night and why CO2 subscribers only dose during the day.
See above ;)

The lights turn on at 7pm and go off at around 12:30am. I've been told to leave them on no longer than 6 hours as, presumably, by the 6th hour, the plants will have got enough nutrients and therefore any left over nutrients will start to feed algae.
This is a little muddled ;) You have been told to reduce the photoperiod at the beginning until the plants grow in and can balance at which point you can then increase. This isn't going to happen in your case which I wil explain at the end.

It's nothing to do with nutrient nor nutrient feeding algae. This is one 'myth' you need to dismiss and quickly to understand a planted tank. The photoperiod is hortened because the plants get enough light from a much shorter time than most people think. After which there is no need to have them on. Why because the plants need to fill out to help combat algae. Algae isn't going to grow when the plants have used what they want. They are not polite waiting their turn. A healthy planted tank will keep algae at bay so worry about the plants and not the algae. Get the plants right and the algae doesn't have much of a chance. Again the comments at the end of this post will be of the upmost importance to your tank.

So if I was to use c02 in my sparcely planted tank, dosing it when the tank lights are on is the most safest time to do it?
Will be answered at the end

I think this question is extra important because in an effort to raise c02 levels yesterday, I turned my airstone off as I was told water ripples would produce enough introduction of oxygen (for the fish) and c02 (for the plants), but 24 hours after turning it off one fish has died (Dwarf Neon Tetra) and others of the same species were gasping at the surface (this is WITHOUT introduction of liquid c02!) so I'd hate to think what the inhabitants would look like if I had dosed c02 AND turned the airstone off..

Whoever told you that the ripples would bring in enough O and CO2 was right. However maybe they didn't clear up a few things. Again I'll answer at the end.

Oh and it isn't liquid CO2. It is liquid C

I've turned the airstone back on on the advise of a LFS owner who said it encourages and abundance of oxygen and improves water circulation (contradicting a FF user) and is stating liquid c02 isn't necessary (again, a contradiction) in a tank with not many plants.
Nope he isn't contradicting the FF user at all. He is stating something different. I am starting to assume that 2 people haven't quite got the whole story ( and nor have we in this post) and therefore are giving you advice based on incomplete info.

Yes the airstone is going to bring an abundance of O in. However you shouldn't need it on. This is another for the last comment I make at the end. Also liquid carbon isn't necessary for a sparsely planted tank.

If you are dosing gas CO2 than you only should be doing it during the photosynthesis period.
In a newbie's case then yes most definately stick to solenoid gas switcho off. Only go 24/7 if you know what you are doing.

Many things govern whether CO2 injection is necessary or not. I have a moderate to heavy planted planted tank with no injection. Why? Because light wattage per gallon is the factor. I'm running about 1 watt per gallon. This means my plants are low light and slower growing plants. I don't need CO2 injected. I can get away with dosed carbon. Now that's not to say CO2 wouldn't be beneficial. However, if you're running something other than a low wattage tank, then CO2 injected becomes more of a requirement.

I'm struggling here. If you don't need injection then you don't need liquid. Its simple really. Nothing to do with which form you add the C/CO2 in. Very highlight tanks can 'get away' with liquid but it would cost a lot. Low light tanks can use pressurised. There is no barrier between which method of injection you use. Just user preference and cost.

My corydoras never breach the surface and always stay submerged which tells me there's enough oxygen.

Corydoras naturally tend to breach the surface. They naturally like to take the occasional gulp. Some refer to them 'burping or farting when the gulp is exhaled when they hit the bottom again. Not really a good thing to use Corys as a sign of O or not. mid to top dwellers are best. If not enough O or too much CO2 they will all be at the top and stay there.

My adult Corys almost soak me with their splash as shoot up and down within a half second every now and again. They do however spend the rest of the time making whoopee ;)

I think also neons are generally for mature, 6 month+ tanks so you could put it down to that.
+1 :good:

Well the tank has 120 litres of water, 2 x 24W T5 bulbs and it contains 1 x Elodea densa, 1 x Cryptocoryne and 1 x Anubias.

I can't wait till the end of my post. I have to say it now :) What on earth are you adding CO2 to the tank for? You have 3 plants under a huge amount of light in a decent size tank. You have about 1% of the quantity that most planted tanks have in them yet more light than most for the plants you are growing. If it is pressurised turn it off. If it is liquid then stop. If it is both then my goodeness the research was bad or the advice was way off the mark. You are doing more harm than good.

You have been asked a couple of times what CO2 you are dosing. We see referals to injection, liquid etc but no answer. What are you dosing in the tank. Tell us. Apart from that stop whatever it is right away.

That is the reason you need the bubbler on. Stop the CO2 and you won't ned the bubbler anymore.

Just completed a water test and ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0 and PH is about 7.4.

Test the Ph of the tap water for us. thats a pretty high Ph for a tank with CO2 injection.


I don't really want to turn it off as I'm now of the opinion that the airstone staying on is absolutely essential.
It is essential while you dose CO2 for no reason. After you stop it won't be essential.

One other question I have relates to drop-checkers..
Aargh READ THE PINS AT THE TOP!!!!

Are they able to measure the influence of liquid c02 in the water?{/quote]
No they measure CO2 and it is liquid C not liquid CO2. Different thing altogether.

A forum user said that liquid c02 disappears after 24 hours so presumably I'd be wasting money watching my c02 levels like a hawk?
If it is the forum user above he said 'half life' not 'life'. However the life is based on it not being consumed. If it was a heavily planted tank the 'life' may be as little as an hour until it was consumed. You get my drift ;)

In addition, the fish have no oxygen issue, it is more a gill fluke problem which is causing some of them to gasp which I am trying to remedy now.

This could well have been caused by the fish being weakened from being blasted with C when there is no plantmass to take it away.

Please can you answer the questions.

How are you injecting the CO2. gas, yeast, liquid, combination?

Why are you injecting CO2 with 3 plants in the tank. If because of advice from someone. You got the wrong advice.

You mention money above. CO2 costs money. You don't need it so don't buy it. Sell what you have unless you are going to put a whole lot more plants in this tank and we are talking a huge amount more than you have. Many many many many.............many times more than you have.

Why have you got so much light above a tank with 3 plants in it? Are they the stock lights? If not the stock one then sell the unit and buy some lower. should mean you make a profit. If it is the stock one you are a little stuck really.

What is the Ph of your tap water? We want 2 tests here.
Pour a cup and then fill your tube from that. Test 1 is done now. 2 hours later fill another tube from the cup that is test 2. What is the reading.

What is the Ph of your tank. Test now, stop CO2 and test tomorrow.

4 Ph results. Will show us something as I would think that 7.4 is actually Tap Ph after 2 hours and that is what shows in the tank too.

CO2 injection highlight are all part of a 'planted tank' and indeed I have argued in the past that 1 plant in a tank makes it planted. however that doesn't mean that a sparesley planted (yours is not sparsely planted it is barely planted) does not follow a planted tank rule. It is basically a non planted tank with a few plants in it. I would add that technically it is a planted tank as it has plants in it. It just wouldn't be considered planted to most planted tank people.

If you intend to go FULLY planted please ensure you read the PINS. Read carefully you need to understand these things before you get something terribly wrong.

p.s. keep up the cycling. Good sport and most enjoyable ;)

AC
 
Nope he isn't contradicting the FF user at all. He is stating something different. I am starting to assume that 2 people haven't quite got the whole story ( and nor have we in this post) and therefore are giving you advice based on incomplete info.

The majority of FF users state that air stones are unnecessary, referring to water agitation created by the outlet pipe of the pump has being the best way to introduce oxygen while the LFS owner placed more emphasis on the airstone being the best at introducing oxygen. That is a contradiction, no two ways about it.


I can't wait till the end of my post. I have to say it now :) What on earth are you adding CO2 to the tank for? You have 3 plants under a huge amount of light in a decent size tank. You have about 1% of the quantity that most planted tanks have in them yet more light than most for the plants you are growing. If it is pressurised turn it off. If it is liquid then stop. If it is both then my goodeness the research was bad or the advice was way off the mark. You are doing more harm than good.

I am dosing liquid c02 or liquid C, AKA EasyLife Liquid Carbon. I am dosing it according to the instructions given on the bottle which state 1ml per 50 litres can be applied in tanks containing not that many plants; 2ml per 50 litres for heavily planted tanks.



Test the Ph of the tap water for us. thats a pretty high Ph for a tank with CO2 injection.

The tap water PH is 7.4.


I don't really want to turn it off as I'm now of the opinion that the airstone staying on is absolutely essential.
It is essential while you dose CO2 for no reason. After you stop it won't be essential.

I am dosing it so that the plants have carbon to convert into oxygen? lol

One other question I have relates to drop-checkers..
Aargh READ THE PINS AT THE TOP!!!!

I have done and it didn't answer the question I asked regarding whether a drop-checker is capable of measuring the amount of liquid C in the water. I'm sorry for confusing everyone in calling it liquid c02.


In addition, the fish have no oxygen issue, it is more a gill fluke problem which is causing some of them to gasp which I am trying to remedy now.

This could well have been caused by the fish being weakened from being blasted with C when there is no plantmass to take it away.

No, one species of fish (Dwarf Neon Rainbwofish) succumed to gill/body flukes prior to using the plant fertilizers (including the liquid C) so it's likely that it was just stress caused by transportation or something the LFS did that was perceived as stressful. Indeed, post number 4 (by myself) already states one of the DNR died when liquid C was not being dosed.

Why have you got so much light above a tank with 3 plants in it? Are they the stock lights? If not the stock one then sell the unit and buy some lower. should mean you make a profit. If it is the stock one you are a little stuck really.

Two T5 lights came with the aquarium and no light will be generated unless there are 2 x T5 bulbs in full working order installed. The unit containing the lights is stuck to the aquarium glass.. not supposed to be removed and sold.


What is the Ph of your tank. Test now, stop CO2 and test tomorrow.
The PH of the tank is around 7.8. Initially it is 7.4 after a 20% water change because the tap water has a PH of 7.4. It takes about 2-3 days to rise to 7.8.

4 Ph results. Will show us something as I would think that 7.4 is actually Tap Ph after 2 hours and that is what shows in the tank too.

No, not the case. The PH rises in the tank due to the carbonic acid leaving the tap water after 2-3 days.
 
The majority of FF users state that air stones are unnecessary, referring to water agitation created by the outlet pipe of the pump has being the best way to introduce oxygen while the LFS owner placed more emphasis on the airstone being
the best at introducing oxygen. That is a contradiction, no two ways about it.

You are using your legal mind here and arguing for no point. It isn't a contradiction.
The aisrtsone is doing the same as the filter output. The water movement is causing gaseous exchaneg. So the LFS man is right. However the FF users are saying you don't need 2 things doing it. They are also right. He is trying to help you bring more O in. The FF users are saying that you should already be OK with the filter rippling. Its a question really of how much agitation at the surface you want. They aren't contradicting, just using different ways to do it.

If you really want to argue who is closer to the truth the the FF users are. The filter output will be bringing in more O. The airstone bubbles are shooting straight up, the filter is the one doing the more work here.

I am dosing liquid c02 or liquid C, AKA EasyLife Liquid Carbon. I am dosing it according to the instructions given on the bottle which state 1ml per 50 litres can be applied in tanks containing not that many plants; 2ml per 50 litres for heavily planted tanks.[/auote]

tanks containing 'not many plants' does not mean tanks with 3 plants. It means something with a relatively low plantmass in comparison to a heavily planted tank.

This is a heavily planted tank below. For a relatively lower planted tank then divide this by 2. You see the point I am making now?
top.jpg


I am dosing it so that the plants have carbon to convert into oxygen? lol
you laugh as if you think I don't understand photosynthesis. You think I don't understand what made you think you needed CO2. I won't bite though, I'll just explain.

There is enough CO2 in every tank in the world (with very few exceptions) for 3 plants already naturally due to the gaseous exchange at the surface which is already bring O in alongside it. There is an equilibrium. A natural level. Also the substrate will adda little from rotting down organics which get through the substrate out of sight and also a minimal amount from the fish.

How do you think I can grow plantmass as above without CO2 addition by any means of human intervention. I do not add liquid nor pressurised nor yeast. It is the natural equilibrium C. I have used all methods of injection and know the results. Doesn't mean I need it though.

I have done and it didn't answer the question I asked regarding whether a drop-checker is capable of measuring the amount of liquid C in the water. I'm sorry for confusing everyone in calling it liquid c02.

It doesn't answer the question because it is a CO2 drop checker and therefore does not measure C, therefore it doesn't need to answer any question on liquid rather than gas related queries by the nature of what it is.

It measures gaseous exchange. It is filled with a known reference 4dKH which when mixed with a few drops of Ph solution is known to show different colours when there are different amounts of CO2 in the tank water. How does it work? The reference solution is seperated from the tank water by air. The air is trapped between the reference solution and the tank water. Through the same gaseous exchange you get at the water surface gas leaves the tank water and enters the sir space. Similarly it exits the airspace and goes into the solution. It works both ways. Therefore it works with gas not liquid. However you don't need the liquid C or pressurised due to the natural CO2 in the water which is more than plentiful for your plants.

No, one species of fish (Dwarf Neon Rainbwofish) succumed to gill/body flukes prior to using the plant fertilizers (including the liquid C) so it's likely that it was just stress caused by transportation or something the LFS did that was perceived as stressful. Indeed, post number 4 (by myself) already states one of the DNR died when liquid C was not being dosed.

Indeed but all the fish will have gill flukes. Most fish have these sort of things and can deal quite happily with it. It is when they are stressed that they have to concetrate on other things and (to simplify) their immune system has to become a lower priority.

Yes some fish may have succumbed from the stress of transport or new tank or any other reasons however by putting in Gluteraldeyde when there are not enough plants to consume it you were causing the fish some stress and therefore you can be making the fish concentrate on breathing rather than living a normal life, thus the gill flukes take their chance.

parasites are like algae. They are often easily 'handled' in a healthy tank but when things aren't ideal they seize the moment.

Two T5 lights came with the aquarium and no light will be generated unless there are 2 x T5 bulbs in full working order installed. The unit containing the lights is stuck to the aquarium glass.. not supposed to be removed and sold.

This is a problem with the new Fluvals and Juwels. Pandering to the myths of high light. They have adapted from the low light setups they used to have to a higher light setup as people were always talking about higher light needs for plants, however we are talking these days of not needing anywhere near the amount of light people thought back then. A common fault with many manufacturers. They follow myths, often feed them theirselves because it sells product. Then the failure due to the myth sells more products (cures. lol) You should be OK but just clean algae off when it is there. treat your tank as an non planted tank.

The PH of the tank is around 7.8. Initially it is 7.4 after a 20% water change because the tap water has a PH of 7.4. It takes about 2-3 days to rise to 7.8.
No, not the case. The PH rises in the tank due to the carbonic acid leaving the tap water after 2-3 days.

You are trying to say that your tank water is 7.8 due to carbonic acid. Then when you change 20% it goes down to the same as the tap water? Is the carbonic acid only in the 20% you remove? How do you remove all the 'reason for the Ph rise' by only changing 20%. This makes no sense at all.

I'm lost with your last statement but it doesn't seem very plausible to me. I will leave that to science people to puzzle over. Does carboniuc acid leave the tank water? How does it do that? Anyway I am no science guru so can't really comment there.

There is a lot of CO2 in fresh tap water. A high level and pressurised. Did you take a cup and test some immediately and some a couple of hours later? That was not for my enjoyment. It was a lesson for you to see the change. CO2 pulls the Ph down. When it gasses off the Ph rises to a natural level. 2 hours!!!

I would expect straight away to see a lower tap reading and then after 2 hours a higher tap reading i.e. 7.4 immediate from the tap and 7.8 after 2 hours. That does sound familiar ;)

Anyway you have the info. You have the answers what you choose to do based on the info is up to you. We can only try to help not force so we have done all we can ;)

AC
 
I have indeed tested my tap water. I did this almost 2 months ago when I was puzzling over what was making my PH change.

I took some 02, put it into a beaker and immediately did a PH test which indicated a PH level of 7.4. I did the same later that day to find it was 7.4 still. Repeated it the next day to find the same result. By the 3rd day though the PH was 7.8+. I don't know what else is highering the PH other than carbonic acid leaving the water, sounds quite plausible to me.

Whilst doing the water tests I filled other beakers up with the tank substrate, the substance which I thought may be higher my PH, only to get the exact same result by the 3rd day.

With regards to water changes, I never said all the carbonic acid was contained in the top-level 20% of the water, nor did I say it wasn't. All I can tell you is what happens naturally to the PH over a given period of time.
 

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