buying fish, and the sellers use of the terms "pair or "breeding group"

[Magnum Man]

I'm going to use Dan's as an example, as I was just on their site... ( not picking on him ) but often times sellers will use the terms I listed in the title, and I can tell you, buying a male and a female ( especially with cichlids ), does not make a "pair" or buying a mixed sex group, does not make a "breeding group"
I've had better luck with live bearers, but with cichlids, particularly apisto's, my females have killed many males, that were bought as pairs... they apparently do not like arranged marriages... I wish sellers would quit advertising them that way...
I also know putting together a breeding group of Tilapia, myself, has not worked well for me... the supplier I use, charges what seems like an outlandish price for a breeding group, but they actually put them together and change out members, until they have a functional group, and after the frustration I have gone though, I just should have paid the money...

this quote from the Tilapia supplier I've used

"Our biologist carefully observes your colony for a few days to ensure that they all display the proper breeding behavior. We make sure that your male is aggressive and that your females aren't. An alpha female or wimpy male will ruin a colony so if necessary we will continue to swap out members of your colony until were absolutely satisfied that you have an actively breeding colony."

I wish that were true, with aquarium fish sellers...

 

[connorlindeman]

An alpha female or wimpy male will ruin a colony

True for humankind as well.

 

[GaryE]

A wimpy female and an alpha male also make a mess. The goal is to get a character match. My (not) secret recipe for quickly and successfully breeding wild arrived dwarf Cichlids when I had easy access to them was always to choose an older, larger female, and a young mature male. The female would have spawned in the wild already, and would know the ropes. I bred a lot of species using that trick. It never worked in the other direction.

I think have to be realistic in our expectations. The best a store can do is pick one of each gender. That is a pair. Whether it becomes a breeding pair is another question. The same is true for a breeding group. You ascertain that these fish are capable of breeding, but who breeds with whom is another question the fish have to work out. In the larger group, you select out ones who have shown spawning behavior, but you can't always get the ones who were together for the deed.
Gender is a bunch of genetic switches, and gets complex with our fish. I have bred and raised many hundreds of Pelvicachromis kribensis, a species that used to be sold as Pelvicachromis taeniatus. I've seen a fascinating phenomenon where a large percentage of males simply never breed. They remain as juveniles for life - the size of adults, but hanging in male only gaggles. Females become territorial before males so I have never been able to see if the same happens with them. If it does, I haven't seen it.
But when I would make up pairs to take them to club auctions, I always made sure I didn't pick the 'non starting' males. They made great community fish, but never paired with females.
I don't know if that comes from nature or from tank conditions - maybe crowding suppressing other males chemically. Maybe genetics. Who knows? I just observe. If it all possible, if I want to breed fish, I order 3 pairs on the principle one will work.

So the store or seller who sells you a pair that never mates is honest. To be sure a pair will breed, they have to be isolated in their own good sized tank for a while, and no one has the resources to do that. It can take weeks. As I sit here, I have a pair of shoes on - one left and one right. They won't breed. But they are a legit pair!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Dang- I just wrote a perfect explanation of all the terms and what they mean and then it vanished. This is a somewhat common occurrence on this forum and I do not have the patience to rewrite things when it happens. UGH!

I explained duo, pair, proven pair, trio and reverse trio and what makes these proven. I also covered groups as well. Somebody else can do this since I am not willing to spend the time to make the same post twice because it got deleted for an unknown reason before I hit Post reply.

I have no clue what causes this issue to happen now and then.

 

[anewbie]

Most species of apistogramma do not pair; and to help ensure survival of male and female you really need a proper layout. I think you had panduro (which will from a temporary pair); but even then i think you were warned that their environment was likely to lead to deaths.

In the case of panduro they don't actually sell pairs - they sell male and a female and the female can be very picky about her mate (nijjensi which are similar are less picky); if you dont' provide a means for the male to escape then yea hte female will kill her.

reverse trio never work for apisto and are just a way for a store to unload excess male though in the case of panduro it might help to buy several males let the female pick one she likes and then remove the others.

In all honestly i would go with laetacara d or laetacara a if you want to watch a pretty dwarf cichild breed. These folks are territorial but the territory size tends to be smaller (panduro can demand up to 3 square feet I've been told). I kept 3 breeding pairs of l. a. in a 72x30 inch aquarium without too much issue - they do not require super soft water though soft acidic helps - as to which it depends on your liking though i lean towards laetacara d as a gentler slightly smaller fish.

 

[Innesfan]

In addition to Laetacara dorsigera and Laetacara araguaiae that @anewbie recommends, I'd add congener Laetacara curviceps. All three are beautiful, interesting and, in my experience, gentler and easier to pair up. Personally, I love their blunt-nosed profile that reminds me of another favorite, Cichlasoma portalegrense, but in miniature and more colorful.

Here they are in alphabetical order--L.araguaiae, L. curviceps and L. dorsigera

 

[gwand]

How big do l. dorsigera get?

 

[emeraldking]

I'm going to use Dan's as an example, as I was just on their site... ( not picking on him ) but often times sellers will use the terms I listed in the title, and I can tell you, buying a male and a female ( especially with cichlids ), does not make a "pair" or buying a mixed sex group, does not make a "breeding group"

I certainly agree with this...

I wish sellers would quit advertising them that way...

Well, to those sellers you're talking about, it's just marketing... This way it sounds more interesting according to their plan...

 

[anewbie]

How big do l. dorsigera get?

3 to 4 inches; leaning towards high 2 to 3 inches. If they live long enough and you have a particularly large male it can encroach high 3 to nearly 4. Females are a little smaller but not substantially. a's are 1/2 to full inch larger; never owned c's. I do have some t's but they are substantially larger and not as docile.

 

[GaryE]

I know fish are expensive (wow, can they ever be expensive) but for Cichlid keepers, the rule of six stands. I may buy a species online from a distant store when it comes in this Fall, and I'll have to get one pair and cross my fingers if I do it. If I weren't a person who needs to worry about money, I'd buy six. It's a tried and very true 'rule'. and one that gains in importance if we are buying sight unseen.
I've seen places list price per couple, and not per pair, but whatever they call it, you get the same thing. Two fish, one male, one female, and zero certainty they'll spawn.
But depending on our set ups, any of us could receive a pair that had produced successful spawns together, and get nothing for it if the tank isn't set up for them. Cichlids aren't automatic like some other groups.

I've long disliked the entire Laetacara group, ever since I kept a couple of them. Long lived, hardy, docile fish that to me were living lumps... I know people who love them, but I'm not there.

 

[Innesfan]

How big do l. dorsigera get?

These are the three dwarves of the genus. Mine max out at about 3"- 3 1/2" though I take @anewbie's word that 4" is possible. There's a recently described but rarely imported fourth dwarf, L. flamannellus, which is referred to by some as 'the yellow curviceps' and there's debate as to whether it is in fact a color variant or a valid species. In my experience, L. dorsigera remains the smallest of the three, many remaining under 3" As @anewbie referenced, the remaining 3 species (so far) in the genus,... L. thayeri, etc... get larger.

BTW there are two color morphs of L. dorsigera, the well-known red-breasted and the lesser known black-breasted. Both appear on dealer lists. The black form:

 

[gwand]

I bought six unsexed juvenile Anomalochromis thomasi in October and obtained three successful spawns by April. I gave away and/or sold 25 juveniles from each spawn. GaryE advised me to purchase 6. The method worked for me. I only wish I could have given away more of these guys but most went to fish stores. People don’t realize a. thomasi are a really delightful fish.

 

[anewbie]

BTW there are two color morphs of L. dorsigera, the well-known red-breasted and the lesser known black-breasted. Both appear on dealer lists. The black form:

View attachment 371308

Someone who collected these in the wild told me there are at least 4 colour morph; red, black, dark blue, light blue. Most domestic are blue like this pair (the lower two are the same colour but not in breeding dress):

 

[Back in the fold]

When I hear the term breeding group I think of gang spawners like Zebra Danios . What @GaryE says about that rule of 6 is something I first heard decades ago and it is a real rule and it works . @Innesfan fan mentioned Cichlasoma portalagrensis . (sigh) If I ever chance to see them again I will immediately scoop them up along with a 55 for them .

 

[GaryE]

@gwand 's thomasi are a super under-rated fish - victims I think of the hobby ignorance that thinks all the cichlids in Africa come from 3 eastern lakes. That's a bright little fish that could probably be gotten from a reputable source here....