breeding?

[colliefish]

Hi there,
I am new to this forum and after reading some of the questions and answers decided it seemed one of the best on the net.
I have been keeping fish for about ten years. Mainly koi, three years ago I tried Oscars, and the last 10 months comunity tropical.
I have a rio 400 with a variety of fish in it. 2 Red honey guarami's seem to get quite romantic with each other and the male started work on a bubble nest.
I purchased a 2 foot tank, planted it at one end, filled with water from my big tank and added the guarimies, the male set to work building a bubble nest and after a couple of days i watched with interest as he and the female entwined themselves and gently rolled over and over. I thought this is it. but when they finished nothing happened. The next day the bubble nest had all but gone. The male is still blowing bubbles, but 9 times out of 10 he eats them.
Then only thing I can come up with is that they are still to young to breed and were just going through the motions.
Can any one confirm this or have experienced similar.
Sorry to be so long winded but I wanted to give all the info.
Cheers
Colliefish

 

[sylvia]

They are evidently trying to breed but, for some reason, not succeeding.

I need some more info on the breeding tank you set up firstly:

Is it cycled? If not, your fish would have been fine at first and spawned but then the ammonia would have spiked and stressed them out...

I assume it's a 20 gallon - what sort of filter's in it? A strong current would have been ample cause for the destruction of the nest. A small sponge filter is best.

Is there a substrate in there? It's best to leave it bare though (considering the plants) it probably isn't. This won't cause the male to destroy his nest or abandon it but it can make it very difficult for inexperienced parents to retrieve sunken eggs. More importantly, it can be difficult to feed the tiny fry (though it isn't impossible by any means).

What's the temp in the tank? Should be about 80 deg F.

Are there any floating plants or similar floating objects on which the bubblenest could be ankored? If not, a styrofoam cup cut lengthways with the concave-side down would do.

Now about the fish - how big are they? I'm assuming your 'red honeys' are colisa chuna/sota - not colisa lalia? What do you feed them? The most obvious question - are you certain you have a male/female pair of the same species and that what you saw them doing when they 'intwined' was a nuptial embrace?

Did you see any eggs floating or in the nest afterwards? Did you remove the female? You should have. Did you try feeding the male after they spawned? Don't bother next time - it can trigger them to eat their own eggs sometimes (not usualy but it's a possibility and unecessary anyway - you just pollute the fry water).

Lighting - describe it and how long you have it on for. This can sometimes matter as the male can only retrieve his eggs and re-build a messy nest if he can see what he's doing.

What may be your only option is to seperate the two fish and condition them on live or frozen foods for about a week. It shouldn't take long as it sounds like they are already prepaired to breed. Then place both in a breeding tank like you did this time and raise the temp. Lower the water level to half while you're at it as well - 20 gallons is a big volume for feeding the tiny fry in at first, reducing it would make this easier. Also make sure you ahve a tight-fitting cover to keep air temp. constant and ensure your filter isn't creating a particularly powerful current - hardly any surface movement is ideal - in fact, you may preffer to keep any filter off until after the fry are free-swimming. Oh and make sure the filter won't suck up the tiny fry - which is why I suggested a sponge filter earlier.

I'm sure there's plenty more that could be responsible for your trouble but I'll see what I can think of afterwards. Good luck meanwhile and keep us updated

 

[colliefish]

Hi there Sylvia,

I will try to answer all your questions to my question..... here goes,

Cycled? Does this mean its gone past the nitrite peak experienced in new tanks.
answer... The tank had been set up for two weeks with a male and female betta in it, i used water from my community tank and filter boost, I check parameters every 2 or 3 days and all is fine.

The tank measures 2 foot by 1 foot wide and 1 foot high, but it is only half full (advice from the net)

there is substrate at the end where the plants are to anchor them. The plants reach and grow along the surface, this is where the bubble nest was built.

Tank tem is 80 F

The fish are about 1.5 inches long. one is a much darker and deeper red than the other and the darker fish has a pointed dorsal fin the paler fish has a more rounded end to the dorsal fin. Besides that they look identical.

When they were entwined they became very still, just gently rolling over, I was watching intently but discreetly and saw no eggs or any attempt from the 'male' to retreive any eggs and spit them into the bubble nest. After a minute of being entwined they parted and then the 'male' chased the female away,
he still chases here but every now and again they will approach each other and be placid but not entwine as described earlier.

I did not remove the female because i saw no eggs or other attempts by the male to retrieve any.

I feed the fish flake food and blood worm along with a couple of crumbs of algae wafer.

The light is on for about 14 hours a day. Is this too long.

The filter is an internal fluval that I have turned down to a low setting and have attached a hose pipe fashiond into a spray bar type thing that does not disturb the surface of the water and causes virtually no detectable current, ie flake food just sits in the same place i put it.

The male is still blowing bubbles but there is no nest what so ever in the tank.

You speak of conditioning the fish, should they be placed in close proximity to each other so they can see each other but cant get to each other (like betta's)?

Thanks for your help
Colliefish

 

[sylvia]

Yep, cycling is the process during which you get an ammonia and nitrIte spike - then they fall - follwoed by a nitrAte increase which you can only reduce via weekly water changes.

As long as you aren't having algae problems, 14 hours of light is ok. However, be aware that this won't actualy be helping your plants as they only photosynthsize for about 8 hours a day. The light is still beneficial for breeding gouramies though - it enables them to see the eggs - and to newly hatched fry so they can see their food.

The internal fluval won't work for rearing fry. They will get sucked into it and die. If you have no other options, it's ok to remove the filter completely - just add a small airstone set on the lowest power once the fry are free-swimming. Be careful when/if you remove the fluval as you may get a nitrIte or ammonia spike. You may wish to leave the filter media in the tank a couple of days or switch the filter off without removing it for a day or two. This may help you avoid the spikes. Make sure to do frequent water changes during this period as you still risk a spike occuring.

When conditioning, seperate the pair entirely so they can't see each other or anything. It also helps to feed them rich foods like live or frozen brine shrimp and bloodworms. Usualy, keeping the temp at around 76 and then increasing it to 80 once you've placed them together helps encourage spawning. A big water change in the breeding tank wth slightly warmer water - or cooler water and then let it warm up gradualy on its own - also can help.
Similarly, some gouramies will spawn with the addition of slightly acidic water - a mixture of tap water and rainwater works. However, only attempt this last trick if you feel confident with playing around with your pH as many gouramies are especialy sensitive to shifts of this kind and can actualy die of shock.

In your case, it sounds like your pair isn't particularly experienced and are not yet 100% ready to breed. Just give them some time and they should do it but seperating them for a day or two and then re-introduicing them (put another fish in the tank meanwhile to keep it from un-cycling) would probably help. If not, try the conditioning I mentioned above.

Just a warning here - if you do successfuly spawn them, you need to have infusoria (you can use commercial liquid foods for egglayers to encourage these) and very small live foods like microworms, vinegar eels or newly-hatched baby brine shrimp (make sure none of the shells get in the tank) ready to feed to them. Egg yolk also works and older fry can handle crushed or powdered flake. Just remember that a lot of these foods (especialy the egg) are very messy. You'll want to do plenty of water changes (watch the temp. is the same) to keep things under control. When you are syphoning leftovers and water out, do it into a white (or other light colored) bucket so you can see any fry you accidentaly take up and return them to the tank.

 

[colliefish]

Hi Sylvia,

Thanks for your help. I will be seperating the fish tomorrow and following your procedures from there.
You have been very informative and detailed and I am sure I will be pestering you again,
Much appreciated
Colliefish

 

[colliefish]

Hi sylvia,

I havn't been about for a while but after you gave me so much help i felt it only polite to give you an update.
My guaramies failed to breed. They just lost interest.




But a couple of days later, my male betta had constructed a good sized bubble nest in the comunity tank. so rather hastily i transfered the guaramies back to the community tank and put the betta's in the breeding tank (1 male and 2 females) along with the bubble nest.
The rest shall we say is history, I have a tank full of baby betta's growing quite rapidly and loving the mix of liquid fry food and newly hatched brine shrimp which i hatch with a kit i bought.
i returned the adult betta's to the community tank where a couple of times since the male has started work on a new bubble nest and courting the female. I am discouraging this by removing the bubble nest as i do not want them to wear themselves out on a task that will just result in their tank companions eating their eggs.

once again many thanks for your help, I still hope to breed the guaramies in the future but will wait till i see them looking ready without forcing them.
Cheers
colliefish.

 

[sylvia]

Hi I do appreciate the update - it's always great to hear about other people's experiences. Good luck with the betta fry and with your gouramies!