Breeding Tank Questions

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Madhousedavy

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Hi this is my first topic i have started so any help will be great (there are a lot of questions).

heres the situation:
i just ordered a new 41 litre for my livebearer fry. it will be here early next week, and i know i have to give it at least a week to mature before i put any fish in, so;
when the week is up i will do a water test at my LFS but should i put in an adult guppy to see if the tank is mature enough or half the baby guppys or all or wat shud i do?
are there any small algae eating fish i can put in the tank with them that wont eat the fry and if so is there any that will breed if i get a m and f of them.

any help you can give me would be great as i say i wont have the tank until about tuesday so the tank wont be ready for fish until maybe the tuesday after but i thought i would post this now so i hopefully get as many replies as possible before then :good:

Just to add something when i do get this tank and set it up should i put tank water from my existing tank or just straight out of the tank and add the necessary conditioners?
 
Well the tank will need cycling which may take longer than a week even if you do have mature media available to kick start it along. I suggest getting your own test kits so you can monitor the process frequently yourself rather than have to take samples to the LFS. You will need to decide how to get the initial ammonia in there (i.e. fishless or not) which will determine whether to put any guppies in there straight away. Fry will be more sensitive and i wouldn't subject them to it until it is fully cycled. Check out the pinned topics on cycling/setting up a new tank if you haven't already, cheers.
 
Fry tanks generally mean sponge and/or box filters, as any sort of power filter is prone to sucking up fry. You have a pretty well stocked 125, take about 1/4 of the media from that filter, add it to the new filter. This is known as cloning, your tank will be cycled as long as you have fish producing waste in it to keep it cycled.

Fast the fish in the cycled tank for 24 hours before removing the media, and feed lightly for the next week. Less food means less waste produced, allowing the nitrifying bacteria to catch up, and preventing any ammonia & nitrite spikes.

Where ever you got the week to mature info, erase it from your mind, and take any advice from that source with a large grain of salt. Half of keeping healthy fish is keeping healthy bacteria. You get no nitrifying bacteria from letting an empty tank run for a week, but it will make your electric company richer. The bacteria need a food source, fish waste, which is a good portion ammonia.

I do this all the time, meaning almost weekly, setting up, emptying, and moving fish to larger quarters. Fry tank sponge filter generally follow the fry from hatching, growout, and then go in a stocked tank to be used with the next batch of fry when fish are sold.

Tanks don't cycle, filter media does. The tank is a glass box. Water doesn't cycle, I would start with 100% fresh as long as you have been keeping up on water changes in the tank the fry originated from.
 
Very good advice above. But, whilst not trying to be picky, i would have thought it correct to refer to a tank (meaning the contents within) to be cycled or otherwise. Absolutely correct that this is determined by processes within the filter media, but it is these processes that relase toxins into the tank which is what we are trying to manage. So when the filter media is mature or 'cycled', the end result is that the tank becomes cycled? Anyway i think i have too much time on my hands...must be the weekend..
 
When the bio filtration is capable of handling the bio load with no measurable amounts of ammonia or nitrite the tank is considered cycled. A small percentage will reside in the gravel when you are not running under gravel filtration, decorations, the sides of the tank, and such. This is a very small percentage, small enough to be of no consequence.

Your nitrifying bacteria need a surface to adhere to, the more surface, the more room to adhere. Sponges have more surface area than a smooth piece of glass, or the surface of decorations. This is where the higher percentage will reside.
 
well thank you for that i will referr back to this when i get the tank through so far there are about 20 fry of platys and guppys and they seem to be doing well in the breeding net and the trap but i thought a tank would be a better option, is there a possibility of them growing quicker in the tank, i know that diet is something to do with it too.

I have only had 1 lot of fry and they are not that big at the moment but i am thinking if i get overrun with them and cannot give them away of take them to the local fish store am i right in understanding that people use some of the more dull guppys or so as food for the full adult fish in the tank

cheers again
 
For livebearers liquifry no.2 builds them up quick but personally i just crush up flake food very fine. If you can get your fry into a tank and do lots of water changes this brings the fry on quicker too i find. But be aware that platy fry are slow growers anyway.
 
When the bio filtration is capable of handling the bio load with no measurable amounts of ammonia or nitrite the tank is considered cycled. A small percentage will reside in the gravel when you are not running under gravel filtration, decorations, the sides of the tank, and such. This is a very small percentage, small enough to be of no consequence.

Your nitrifying bacteria need a surface to adhere to, the more surface, the more room to adhere. Sponges have more surface area than a smooth piece of glass, or the surface of decorations. This is where the higher percentage will reside.

what is the best substrate to have in the breeding tank as i know nothing is easier to clean but i would like some sort of plants in there i was thinking maybe sand, whats your opinion?
 
You dont have to have anything really-i have pea gravel in mine,its easy to vac up with a syphon tube. Sand really isnt worth the effort,it looks great but it will be a pain to clean. Stick to gravel or nothing in my opinion. I have sand in my house tank -best to keep that for your best and exhibition tank. No need to have plants really unless you intend to keep the fry. I have a few plants but they tend to get in the way when i am catching fish for customers.
 
No substrate is best, I've seen breeders use small pots for plants in bare tanks. When it's time to catch & bag just remove the pots plant & all. A buddy of mine leaves the top off of floss filled box filters, and puts the plants in there. It seems to work well enough for him.

Bare tanks do take a little getting used to, I toss in a silk plant here & there, it doesn't look so sterile. For breeding livebearers you want floating plants, you should see the livebearer breeders bid up on old plastic floating plants at auctions.
 
if you want somehting to help clean up some of the leftover food that your fish don't eat, a few snails would be a nice addition to a fry tank, a small box filter and my advice would be to add no substrate to the tank. instead of adding water from your old tank add your filter media and a little bit of ammonia to help sustain the beneficial bacteria until you get your fish in there.
 
Thanks for the tips everyone if there is anything you feel i need to do to make sure everything is done right then let me know.

another question:
the tank i have at the moment is a Juwel rio 125 and the breeding tank i ordered is the Fish are fun FRF-511 so they have different filter systems i was wondering what sponge from my current tank would i need to put in the new filter and if i buy a new sponge to fit my current tank can i just place it straight in the filter or does that have to cycle aswell.
 
Hi, guys,
if anyone's interested in my inflation-reduced 2 cents...
I was absolutely horrified a while back to discover that the sudden, mysterious loss of some of my fish some time ago was quite likely caused by an ammonia spike due to my admittedly paranoid and excessive (never even found any guck underneath) twice-weekly stirring and over-cleaning of gravel over a period of several weeks, being afraid that the intended addition of slate over any degree of fish waste or plant matter trapped in the gravel beneath might cause some problem for the (mostly now deceased) fish.
Due to the continual emphasis on nitrification through bacteria within the filter, I was unaware of how much difference bacteria resident throughout the tank made, one way or the other.
(And it happens fast, too: the fish had been fine when I left the house, returning an hour or so later to find some of my fish in great distress and with previously healthy plant leaves rapidly turning white in that tank.
Frantic water changes left me some of my plants and fish, although even the surviving plants took months to fully recover and regrow.
I'd have sworn somebody must have dumped bleach in, until long after when an article made my heart practically stop....)
And whether anyone else is interested or not, I know I'd have been very glad of a warning prior to that heartbreaking disaster.
From a fast Google:

And a special note of important quotes from the article below '... So, it follows that if you sterilize your gravel, you will destroy most of the biofiltration in your tank. ...'

'... But every time you replace disposable filter media, you throw out the good bacteria living on it. This may or may not be a problem. It depends on how much biofiltration there is elsewhere in the tank. For example, in a heavily planted aquarium with a gravel bed, it is unlikely to be a problem; there will be plenty of nitrifying bacteria colonizing those other sites. It would be different in a bare aquarium set up for breeding, however. The filter media would be the main source of biofiltration in such a setup. ...'


http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/d...788&search=

... Probably the biggest repository of helpful bacteria in your aquarium occurs on the surface of each piece of gravel. Each grain, though appearing smooth to the eye, is rough at a microscopic level, and thus provides a huge surface area for the growth of helpful bacteria. So, it follows that if you sterilize your gravel, you will destroy most of the biofiltration in your tank. Not knowing this, hobbyists sometimes remove the gravel for cleaning and have been known to boil it, scald it or (worst of all) use bleach or soap to sterilize the gravel. This is a huge mistake! It kills off the nitrifying bacteria and will allow ammonia levels to increase rapidly in the water. Gravel should never be cleaned with anything but plain, aquarium-temperature water. ...

... Safely Maintaining Filters
The most significant part of your aquarium maintenance is likely to involve the cleaning of one or more filters. Filters don’t remove waste — they just collect it. Nitrifying bacteria grow on every solid surface in the tank, including gravel, glass, plants, decorations and filter media. Indeed, most filters contain some type of biomedia designed to provide plenty of surface area for the growth of helpful bacteria. So, it’s best to take steps to preserve the bacteria on this media when possible.
Disposable Filter Media
Many filters use disposable media as a convenient way to clean the filter. When the media is dirty, you throw it away and replace it. Slide-in filter cartridges for power filters are the most common example. But every time you replace disposable filter media, you throw out the good bacteria living on it. This may or may not be a problem. It depends on how much biofiltration there is elsewhere in the tank. For example, in a heavily planted aquarium with a gravel bed, it is unlikely to be a problem; there will be plenty of nitrifying bacteria colonizing those other sites. It would be different in a bare aquarium set up for breeding, however. The filter media would be the main source of biofiltration in such a setup. ...

... One final tip for maintaining helpful bacteria is to not turn the filter off, except for maintenance, especially with a canister filter. Helpful bacteria require oxygen. If a dirty canister is turned off, the helpful bacteria will use up the oxygen and die. Because the filter is closed off from air, nitrifying bacteria will be replaced by anaerobic denitrifying bacteria, which do not need oxygen to break down waste.

These produce hydrogen sulfide and other toxic substances as a by-product. If you turn this dirty filter back on after having it off for a few hours, a day or a week, it may force poison into your tank. If you have a power outage, it’s a good idea to clean your canister filter before restarting it. ...

http://www.novalek.com/kordon/articles/bio..._filtration.htm

... These nitrifying bacteria in biological filtration and the aquatic nitrogen cycle are in the beneficial gram positive group of bacteria, and their presence is important to aquarium and pond keeping. These bacteria are harmless to the aquarium inhabitants, as well as to man, pets, and other life, and do not cause any disease problems. They like to stick to positively charged surfaces, such as glass, gravel, and other substrates, filter materials such as filter pads, activated carbon, ceramic Raschig rings (see Kordon Bio-Mech) and glass decorations. They do not thrive on plastic, such as used in filter balls, or on the walls of plastic aquariums, or on plastic decorations. In fact, for those aquarists wanting for some reason to keep these bacteria low in number, they only need to be sure that as much as possible everything in their aquarium is plastic.

Small numbers of these bacteria will come into the aquarium and pond on the surface of the fish, invertebrates, or aquatic plants, or through moist air, or in natural food. Also, these bacteria can be provided by commercial culture products (see Kordon Zym-Bac) or by introducing some gravel or filter material from a well established aquarium or pond which already has gone through the nitrogen sequence. A cubic inch of gravel or filter material per ten gallons of water is sufficient. Given an adequate food supply, oxygen and a suitable substrate, these bacteria will quickly spread throughout the new gravel and filter bed.

Nitrifying bacteria typically establish themselves on the surface of the gravel, the inner surfaces of the aquarium or pond, inside filter tubing, and anywhere else that has a water flow resulting in good oxygen levels. Keep in mind that the greater the number of gram-positive bacteria, the greater take up of oxygen from the water. Ample aeration is needed so that the fish and aquatic invertebrates do not suffocate. ...

(In illustration of how badly we're misled by common mythology, in view of such bacteria - unlike algae - apparently not prospering on plastic, this actual patent based on roughened plastic plants which follows seems yet another example of a great theory built on common misinformation.
Not to mention the fact that real plants do it all...)

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4699829.html


Biological filtration plants
Document Type and Number:
United States Patent 4699829


Abstract:
Ornamental artificial foliage for placement within an aquarium. The foliage formed of a material which is not harmful to the aquatic life within the aquarium. The ornamental foliage has a rough, granular surface texture over and above that normally required for the aesthetic appearance of the foliage. The rough, granular surface provides an increase in the surface area presented by the unmodified foliage to support increased growth and propagation of organisms which are active in causing biological filtration, thereby providing an effective source of biological filtration within the aquarium. ...


http://www.lifeforceonline.co.uk/aquarium_substrates.html

... An aquarium substrate is the material chosen to cover the bottom of the aquarium. It can, depending on the system type, be for purely decorative adornment, it can be an essential additive needed to maintain the water chemistry or it can be a major component of the aquarium filtration system. ...

... (Mathematically a finer substrate is a more efficient biological filter medium as it has a larger surface area providing a greater area for colonizing by aerobic nitrifying bacteria. ...)...



http://ezinearticles.com/?Nitrogen-Cycle-A...s&id=328078

... Ammonia (NH4) is assimilated in more than one way. Plants (such as Hornwort) and algae can assimilate ammonia and ammonium directly for the biosynthesis. The remaining bulk of decomposed byproducts are utilized by bacteria in a process called nitrification. Ammonia does not last long in a healthy aquarium environment, fortunately. Nitrifying bacteria such as Nitrosomonas quickly break down ammonia into less toxic Nitrite (NO2). During this process, specific species of nitrifying bacteria strip the ammonium of its hydrogen molecules as an energy source. Oxygen molecules are then affixed to the stripped nitrogen, forming the oxide nitrite (NO2).
Another group of bacteria (Nitrobacter ) utilize the enzyme nitrite oxidase that is then responsible for converting nitrite into nitrate (NO3). This nitrate can either be used by plants as a nutrient source, or can be further broken down into nitrogen gas (N2) through the activity of anaerobic bacteria such as Pseudomonas . ...

... Nature can pack a lot of bacteria into small places, which is to the advantage of the aquarist. For bacterial growth, all that is required is ammonia and oxygenated water. This is the beginning of the nitrogen process and the growth of bacterial colonies.
Remember you need oxygen and a lot of surface area for bacterial colonies. Wet/dry filters, sponge filters, ceramic media, and loosely packed upper layers of gravel are all sources for bacterial accumulation. If there is not adequate surface area in oxygen areas of the filter media or gravel, nitrification will be poor. Water will follow the path of least resistance, so if your filter or gravel has a build-up of non-nitrifying bacterial slime or is packed to tightly, nitrification will not be achieved. Sponge Filters or Pre-Filters are an inexpensive filter medium for colonies of nitrifying bacteria. Wet/dry filters and live rock (in Marine Aquariums) are excellent sources of bio filtration in larger aquaria. Bio-Wheels are very popular, but in my tests in my maintenance business they are VASTLY overrated. They tend to accumulate hard water deposits and stop and even when they are working my tests have shown little difference in aquariums when they are removed as compared to sponge filters or wet/dry filters. Canister filters are also good sources for nitrification as long as the proper media is used (such as ceramic rings) and the media is not packed too tight and is rinsed regularly.

DENITRIFICATION:
Is the process of converting Nitrates (NO3) in to Nitrogen (N2), which is dispersed into the atmosphere. This process can take place in an environment without oxygen by anaerobic bacteria. This process is more common in Marine aquaria and takes place in fine #00 sand, , live rock, or “aquarium mud”. In freshwater aquariums this process often produces deadly Hydrogen Sulfide, but by maintaining an oxygen level above 1 ppm, this can be avoided. Plants roots are great for maintaining this balance of oxygen in the gravel for proper Nitrate removal
A thicker layer of coarse gravel utilizing a "void space" called a plenum is often used for Nitrate removal in Saltwater and even freshwater aquariums. These are not to be confused with under gravel filters. ...

And the awful thing is that even if we actually sort of know this, we don't tend to apply it until some tragic consequence drives it home - although I'm speaking, I suppose, mostly for myself...

The aquarium ideally functions as a unit, and the baby's in the bathwater as well.

If we're looking in the wrong direction, we may never see or know what we're throwing away.
 
"Probably the biggest repository of helpful bacteria in your aquarium occurs on the surface of each piece of gravel. Each grain, though appearing smooth to the eye, is rough at a microscopic level, and thus provides a huge surface area for the growth of helpful bacteria. So, it follows that if you sterilize your gravel, you will destroy most of the biofiltration in your tank. Not knowing this, hobbyists sometimes remove the gravel for cleaning and have been known to boil it, scald it or (worst of all) use bleach or soap to sterilize the gravel. This is a huge mistake! It kills off the nitrifying bacteria and will allow ammonia levels to increase rapidly in the water. Gravel should never be cleaned with anything but plain, aquarium-temperature water."

This is true if all you are running is an undergravel filter. If there is no water flow, as with an undergravel filter, no O2 gets to the gravel much deeper than the first 1/2". Nitrifying bacteria is aerobic, needing O2. There is plenty of water flow, and a higher O2 level in the filter, and media.

I have taken tanks stocked average to overstocked, removed the occupants, decorations, and gravel, then replaced the gravel with new, or even not used any. No problems. This is because no significant amount of nitrifying bacteria is present.

"Because the filter is closed off from air, nitrifying bacteria will be replaced by anaerobic denitrifying bacteria, which do not need oxygen to break down waste.

These produce hydrogen sulfide and other toxic substances as a by-product. If you turn this dirty filter back on after having it off for a few hours, a day or a week, it may force poison into your tank. If you have a power outage, it’s a good idea to clean your canister filter before restarting it. ..."

Nitrifying bacteria are slow growing in the presence of food (ammonia & nitrite) and O2, being capable of doubling in amount in 24 hours when dealing with a mature colony. They are also slow to die, dying back at a rate of 50% or less when lacking these food sources. It will generally take longer than hours, more like two days for the bacteria to grow that exist in anaerobic conditions. Often the initial problem during a power or filter failure is a drop in the O2 level, this is a big problem for fish, depending on the size of the tank, occupants, and room temperature causing the initial problem.

These two quotes contradict each other, anaerobic bacteria is ok in gravel, but not in filter media? If there is no circulation to filter media the bacteria go anaerobic in hours or days, but don't in the gravel?

The biggest problem with gravel in any tank is that is is really good at hiding waste. Take any tank with gravel that has been running for a few months and remove the top completely. Remove all the ornaments. Stick both hands in, shift all the gravel to one side of the tank, then the other side of the tank. Smooth it out, replace the top and light, and observe the water.

This is why any substrate is not a good idea in a fry tank, where cleanliness is a priority.
 
i got the tank through today so i am letting that cycle for now but yesterday (monday) i bought a sponge filter for it and placed that in my existing tank for now and was wondering does a sponge filter actually need cycling plus i added a quarter of my existing tank water to it as my LFS said that will speed the process up a little the rest is conditioned tap water.

Also i put some black gravel in there as i find it looks very good i realise that its near impossible to see any dirt on the floor bed its just i wanted some real plants in thre and im tempted although its a breeding tank to make half of it a densly planted tank when the fry get bigger i find its easy enough to net them.

I know its all gonna blow up in my face at some point for some reason
 
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