Breeding Gouramis The Shop Guy
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pica_nuttalli
don't be a twit
he remembered wrong. a blue 3-spot and a gold 3-spot make a lavender 3-spot
pica_nuttalli is right - you can get a lavender gourami by crossing a blue with a gold - all three color morphs are the exact same species (Trichogaster trichopterus), collectively reffered to as three-spot gouramies.
However, your 'shop guy' isn't completely wrong (though this was probably purely coinsidental). The result of crossing a pearl gourami (Trichogaster leeri) with any of the three-spot gouramies (Trichogaster trichopterus) is typicaly known as a 'lavender gourami' as well. These aren't common hybrids - mainly because it's quite tricky to persuade these two species to breed considering that three-spots are quite a lot more aggressive than pearls. They also don't look like the lavender three-spot and I suspect were simply mis-named because of their hybrid status - many people think crossing different three-spot color morphs is also hybridisation (which it isn't!). I've only seen some in person once and those were pearl X gold three-spot. They looked, realy, very much like their three-spot parent (who was the father - I've been told that the opposite doesn't work effectively because male pearls aren't 'tough' enough or large enough to persuade three-spot females to spawn) - same gold color and shape. There were a few small differences, from what I could see, in the fins and they had some faint spangles like pearls do on the body - but nothing noticeable. They are certainly not hybrids worth producing so, if you are interested in breeding gouramies, stick with the true lavender cross
Or better yet, try pure pearls
However, your 'shop guy' isn't completely wrong (though this was probably purely coinsidental). The result of crossing a pearl gourami (Trichogaster leeri) with any of the three-spot gouramies (Trichogaster trichopterus) is typicaly known as a 'lavender gourami' as well. These aren't common hybrids - mainly because it's quite tricky to persuade these two species to breed considering that three-spots are quite a lot more aggressive than pearls. They also don't look like the lavender three-spot and I suspect were simply mis-named because of their hybrid status - many people think crossing different three-spot color morphs is also hybridisation (which it isn't!). I've only seen some in person once and those were pearl X gold three-spot. They looked, realy, very much like their three-spot parent (who was the father - I've been told that the opposite doesn't work effectively because male pearls aren't 'tough' enough or large enough to persuade three-spot females to spawn) - same gold color and shape. There were a few small differences, from what I could see, in the fins and they had some faint spangles like pearls do on the body - but nothing noticeable. They are certainly not hybrids worth producing so, if you are interested in breeding gouramies, stick with the true lavender cross
Or better yet, try pure pearls arrrhhhhh 
that probly means the lavender gouramis that that supplyer guy said he could get in are probly the hybrids of pearl gourami and the three-spot gouramies i have never found a 3 spot gouramies lavender and i realy want to cuz i have a fair few other color morphs of them and i like breeding them from time to time i was hope to get a female lavender but i would have taken a male if i could not have got a female the pet store person said the supply gets the lavenders in from time to time and i thort if they were called lavender gouramis he was just wrong about how you get a lavender typ but it sounds more like he gets the hybrids if thats how he thinks can the hybrid breed with 3 spots ? and what would the babys look like
that probly means the lavender gouramis that that supplyer guy said he could get in are probly the hybrids of pearl gourami and the three-spot gouramies i have never found a 3 spot gouramies lavender and i realy want to cuz i have a fair few other color morphs of them and i like breeding them from time to time i was hope to get a female lavender but i would have taken a male if i could not have got a female the pet store person said the supply gets the lavenders in from time to time and i thort if they were called lavender gouramis he was just wrong about how you get a lavender typ but it sounds more like he gets the hybrids if thats how he thinks can the hybrid breed with 3 spots ? and what would the babys look likeI'm actualy almost certain it won't be the hybrids so I wouldn't worry too much if I were you.
What do you mean 'what would the babies look like'? Do you mean the pearl X three-spot babies? If so, I described them in my previous post - they look like ordinary three-spots for the most part.
BTW, if you do get more three-spots, be aware that you may have problems as your existing gouramies might attack them -especialy if the new fish are smaller. Remember what you described happening with the angelfish you tried to add? The same sort of thing would happen if you added a new gourami. So, if you do, add several at once (not just one) and it would be best to stick with females. Re-arange the tank before adding them as well.
What do you mean 'what would the babies look like'? Do you mean the pearl X three-spot babies? If so, I described them in my previous post - they look like ordinary three-spots for the most part.
BTW, if you do get more three-spots, be aware that you may have problems as your existing gouramies might attack them -especialy if the new fish are smaller. Remember what you described happening with the angelfish you tried to add? The same sort of thing would happen if you added a new gourami. So, if you do, add several at once (not just one) and it would be best to stick with females. Re-arange the tank before adding them as well.
cool i made a little error when i asked the qestion what i ment was ......u said you had seen the hybrid only from male 3 spots and fremale pearls you were told that the opposite doesn't work effectively because male pearls aren't 'tough' enough or large enough to persuade three-spot females to spawn) my qestion is the baby of them both that looks a lot like a three spot would he if he was a male breed with a female 3 spot or would he not be 'tough' enough or large enough to persuade three-spot females to spawn) .....would he grow to the normale 3 spot size ???what afects would there be on his babys i seem to rember hybrid fish tend to weaker and some times have truble breeding i guess im kind of asking about all the little thing that the breeding afects cut i did not think u could breed gouramis with any other typ of gouranis i dont spose you can cross a moonlight gourami with any thing ??
Because of how genetics work, it's unlikely that the offspring of a male three-spot X female pearl would be any different to the offspring of a male pearl X female three-spot. In fact, they should be exactly the same (within reason obviously) and I am not aware of any evidence to suggest otherwise.
In some animals (like lions and tigers) the offspring do look different depending on which way round their parents are bred (ie male tiger X female lion or male lion X female tiger). This is due to sex-linked genes but realy shouldn't be the case with these gouramies.
In terms of health, most viable hybrids are actualy very hardy and healthy fish (with notable exceptions such as molly X guppy). However, they are also often sterile or somewhat infertile. This doesn't affect their behaviour or health - just their ability to produce fertlised eggs/fry. I don't know whether pearl X three-spot hybrids are fertile unfortunately but, to be honest, I would discourage breeding them anyway.
Size-wise, I expect the hybrids grow to about 5-6" (like three-spots) - though I didn't pay close attention to those I saw and most were juveniles anyway. the difference in size between pearls and three-spots isn't that great anyway.
In some animals (like lions and tigers) the offspring do look different depending on which way round their parents are bred (ie male tiger X female lion or male lion X female tiger). This is due to sex-linked genes but realy shouldn't be the case with these gouramies.
In terms of health, most viable hybrids are actualy very hardy and healthy fish (with notable exceptions such as molly X guppy). However, they are also often sterile or somewhat infertile. This doesn't affect their behaviour or health - just their ability to produce fertlised eggs/fry. I don't know whether pearl X three-spot hybrids are fertile unfortunately but, to be honest, I would discourage breeding them anyway.
Size-wise, I expect the hybrids grow to about 5-6" (like three-spots) - though I didn't pay close attention to those I saw and most were juveniles anyway. the difference in size between pearls and three-spots isn't that great anyway.
thank for the info one last qestion if i had a three spot lavender gourami what other 3 spot should i breed it with to get the lavender color morph or do u have the same chance of geting a lavender color morph from a blue three spot and a gold as u would between (would you breed the lavender color morph with the gold or blue if you were trying for lavender color morphs?)
I have not looked into three-spot genetics so I can only help you in so far as to postulate what might be the case.
If it's true that a gold crossed with a blue produces lavenders, then either blue or gold is likely to be partialy dominant (ie they are codominant).
If you cross a blue or a gold with a lavender, therefore you have a 50% chance of getting lavenders (so half the fry will be lavender and the other half will be the color of the other parent).
Having said that, if lavender is not the result of crossing blue with gold and the trait is, therefore, not codominant, it could behave in a number of different ways:
One possibility is that it is a simple recessive or dominant allele. If it's dominant, whatever you cross it with will produce at least some lavenders. If it is recessive, you stand a chance of producing lavender offspring in the first generation but are certainly going to produce lavender offspring in the second generation (ie by crossing brother and sister from the first spawn).
I would assume that crossing a blue with a gold gourami, if this doesn't produce lavenders, would produce a wild-type muddy blue. If this is the case, blue is dominant over gold. In that case, lavender would probably be more likely to be produced from crossing the lavender(s) to gold gouramies if lavender behaves as a simple Mendelian allele (dominant or recessive like I described above).
An alternatvie would be that lavender is the result of lots of different genes and was originaly selectively bred. If this is so, you have very little hope of producing lavenders unless you breed lavender to lavender.
As far as I know, lavender is indeed the result of crossing blue to gold but the gold needs to be from blue (ie selectvely bred bright blue as is currently the most popular color - not the brownish wild color) lineage (because most golds descend from wild Trichogaster trichopterus sumatranus so the offspring from such crosses show that typical muddy-blue color instead of a bright mix of blue and gold).
What I am basicaly saying is, if I'm right, you should cross your lavender to a blue or opaline and you'd expect about half the fry to be lavender and the rest blue
Breeding the offspring back to more blues may improve the color thereafter and you could also cross lavender with lavender to get similar (possibly better though you'd also get a quarter gold and a quarter blue) results.
Please do let me know when you try a cross what the result is! I'd love to work out how lavender realy works
If it's true that a gold crossed with a blue produces lavenders, then either blue or gold is likely to be partialy dominant (ie they are codominant).
If you cross a blue or a gold with a lavender, therefore you have a 50% chance of getting lavenders (so half the fry will be lavender and the other half will be the color of the other parent).
Having said that, if lavender is not the result of crossing blue with gold and the trait is, therefore, not codominant, it could behave in a number of different ways:
One possibility is that it is a simple recessive or dominant allele. If it's dominant, whatever you cross it with will produce at least some lavenders. If it is recessive, you stand a chance of producing lavender offspring in the first generation but are certainly going to produce lavender offspring in the second generation (ie by crossing brother and sister from the first spawn).
I would assume that crossing a blue with a gold gourami, if this doesn't produce lavenders, would produce a wild-type muddy blue. If this is the case, blue is dominant over gold. In that case, lavender would probably be more likely to be produced from crossing the lavender(s) to gold gouramies if lavender behaves as a simple Mendelian allele (dominant or recessive like I described above).
An alternatvie would be that lavender is the result of lots of different genes and was originaly selectively bred. If this is so, you have very little hope of producing lavenders unless you breed lavender to lavender.
As far as I know, lavender is indeed the result of crossing blue to gold but the gold needs to be from blue (ie selectvely bred bright blue as is currently the most popular color - not the brownish wild color) lineage (because most golds descend from wild Trichogaster trichopterus sumatranus so the offspring from such crosses show that typical muddy-blue color instead of a bright mix of blue and gold).
What I am basicaly saying is, if I'm right, you should cross your lavender to a blue or opaline and you'd expect about half the fry to be lavender and the rest blue
Breeding the offspring back to more blues may improve the color thereafter and you could also cross lavender with lavender to get similar (possibly better though you'd also get a quarter gold and a quarter blue) results.
Please do let me know when you try a cross what the result is! I'd love to work out how lavender realy works
i will im still not shore if the pet shop will have them they guy said they would but i have found with that pet shop the guy says what he bleaves to be true but half the time things dont turn out that way i realy only keep going back cuz its the only pet store in town and guys a friend and evan if he dose have them in they will be small im beting so they will have to grow befor breed oh im not shore if this may change what you said in your info befor but i have herd peepl say they have had a lot better luck with Opaline to gold ruther then the strate blue color ......oh and i thort breeding from brother to sister was bad?
Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if opaline to gold produces better results because opalines have been bred for color more extensively. You could try either blue or opaline - I don't know quite how much difference it would make but it would be worth trying opaline anyway (in terms of the blue color, both are the same - only the pattern is different).
Breeding brother to sister is called inbreeding and, yes, it can cause problems (namely abnormalities and high mortality rates) if it is done consistently. However, it needs to be done over successive generations for very serious issues to arise so breeding brother to sister once in the first generation shouldn't cause any problems. Actualy, many breeders of, say, guppies or bettas, use inbreeding and line breeding (parent/uncle to offspring) all the time in order to improve their lines and make characteristics that are considered desirable breed true. Occasionaly, they'll out-cross (ie breed to urnelated fish) in order to return some variation to the gene pool and improve health as necessary.
Breeding brother to sister is called inbreeding and, yes, it can cause problems (namely abnormalities and high mortality rates) if it is done consistently. However, it needs to be done over successive generations for very serious issues to arise so breeding brother to sister once in the first generation shouldn't cause any problems. Actualy, many breeders of, say, guppies or bettas, use inbreeding and line breeding (parent/uncle to offspring) all the time in order to improve their lines and make characteristics that are considered desirable breed true. Occasionaly, they'll out-cross (ie breed to urnelated fish) in order to return some variation to the gene pool and improve health as necessary.
sooooo what your saying is its okay to inbreed gouramis as long as now and then you add a new fish down the line now and then 
?
.....is there any way to breed them to try to make them grow bigger in size
?...............and what sort of abnormalitie can happen 
?
?.....is there any way to breed them to try to make them grow bigger in size
?...............and what sort of abnormalitie can happen ?Yes, that's basicaly what I'm saying. You'll know when the line is beginning to lose vigour because of the abnormalities and the inability to produce large batches of fry.
In terms of what 'abnormalities' can result - it could be anything from bent spines and missing fins to internal problems. The fish can also simply die upon hatching or may not be able to swim and would starve. You are also more likely to get fish that are prone to disease (think of what's happened to dwarf gouramies - that is largely due to the inbreeding that's been necesssary for producing all those new color morphs - the same is true of many fancy guppy strains that have become extremely weak over the generations).
What you are asking about with the size is all about selective breeding (not necessarily inbreeding). In theory, you could breed larger gouramies simply by crossing the largest to the largest and, over time, you should see a net increase in size. However, you'll never get a three-spot that's much larger than the largest already existing three-spot as that would require the fry to have quite different genetics from their parents.
Think of it this way - the neon blue morph of the dwarf gourami is a selectively bred variety. It has red stripes but they are narrower and fainter than the wild type. These were developed by picking out the blue-est fish and crossing them so that, over generations, the neon blue was developed. Now take the powder blue - it doesn't have stripes. This was not simply selectively bred - it arose as a random mutation where the fry simply didn't have stripes and was then developed from there (through selectvie breeding) so that it is brighter in color.
What I'm saying is that you could conceivably create a larger three-spot but it would never get significantly larger than those we have today and you certainly wouldn't see major differences for many, many generations.
Simialrly, you could increase fin length in the way that betta breeders have done with the veil tail (note that, by contrast, getting the tail to be of 'halfmoon' shape isn't down to selective breeding alone - it would require a mutation to occur that makes the tail symmetrical on both sides). You could also change the existing morphs to perhaps produce darker opalines (by breeding the darkest to the darkest etc). In fact, with the color, you could probably get almost completely black fish - but it would take a long time. Something similar was done when producing platinums (which were selectively bred from golds).
In terms of what 'abnormalities' can result - it could be anything from bent spines and missing fins to internal problems. The fish can also simply die upon hatching or may not be able to swim and would starve. You are also more likely to get fish that are prone to disease (think of what's happened to dwarf gouramies - that is largely due to the inbreeding that's been necesssary for producing all those new color morphs - the same is true of many fancy guppy strains that have become extremely weak over the generations).
What you are asking about with the size is all about selective breeding (not necessarily inbreeding). In theory, you could breed larger gouramies simply by crossing the largest to the largest and, over time, you should see a net increase in size. However, you'll never get a three-spot that's much larger than the largest already existing three-spot as that would require the fry to have quite different genetics from their parents.
Think of it this way - the neon blue morph of the dwarf gourami is a selectively bred variety. It has red stripes but they are narrower and fainter than the wild type. These were developed by picking out the blue-est fish and crossing them so that, over generations, the neon blue was developed. Now take the powder blue - it doesn't have stripes. This was not simply selectively bred - it arose as a random mutation where the fry simply didn't have stripes and was then developed from there (through selectvie breeding) so that it is brighter in color.
What I'm saying is that you could conceivably create a larger three-spot but it would never get significantly larger than those we have today and you certainly wouldn't see major differences for many, many generations.
Simialrly, you could increase fin length in the way that betta breeders have done with the veil tail (note that, by contrast, getting the tail to be of 'halfmoon' shape isn't down to selective breeding alone - it would require a mutation to occur that makes the tail symmetrical on both sides). You could also change the existing morphs to perhaps produce darker opalines (by breeding the darkest to the darkest etc). In fact, with the color, you could probably get almost completely black fish - but it would take a long time. Something similar was done when producing platinums (which were selectively bred from golds).
this is very intresting info i have one platinum gourami do u think i could use it instead of the gold and still get lavender gouramis? could u not get a freak or mutation in size as well ?you no one that happens like once out of 10000 of trys as your aiming for bigger ones if that happend and you kept breeding that one with some of the other gouramis that were big but only the normale size big then i would have thort you could slowly breed them up to at least the freaks/mutations size? oh and as for bent spines my first gourami sad to say she died some time back she was the only one so far who i have been able to breed out of 6 batchers there were 2 batchers where i saw a bent spine one i was not breeding brother or sister she was ruther big as well she was near the size of the moon light gouramis in lenth not many of the babys ever grew up most times i got between 10 to 13 from her that lived to grow old i just thort it was cuz i am not realy fully set up with a big tank for the fry what do u think ...............oh and now i think i have a goal to aim for im going to try to breed realy big lavender gouramis so im going to look out for big gouramis in perth and i think i will look for big fins as well i already have a ruther big fined male brown gourami he was a baby of the dead female i was talking about i kept him over the others that were left cuz he had big fins im not shore i can ever breed him cuz i want color but every male that i put with his mother be for she died always they all turned out brown 
......................................oh i have a very dark green Opaline and when breeding to a female he gets near black i have never got him to breed yet he gets to mad at the girls if he cant get them qick lol and starts biteing hes not realy old anuth i think
so im going to look out for big gouramis in perth and i think i will look for big fins as well i already have a ruther big fined male brown gourami he was a baby of the dead female i was talking about i kept him over the others that were left cuz he had big fins im not shore i can ever breed him cuz i want color but every male that i put with his mother be for she died always they all turned out brown ......................................oh i have a very dark green Opaline and when breeding to a female he gets near black i have never got him to breed yet he gets to mad at the girls if he cant get them qick lol and starts biteing hes not realy old anuth i thinkYes, a mutation could cause an increase in size but, as you said yourself, it's unlikely to happen. Also, yes, you could breed the gouramies to be larger and larger - but you'll eventualy reach a point where the variation doesn't exist to make them any larger without mutation and, if not that, it'll take a long time anyway.
Yes, you could use a platinum but you'll not get the lovely bright lavender colors. It'll be washed out and probably rather brownish.
All male gouramies have long fins compaired to females so breeding to your male probably won't have a huge effect. What you need is both males and females that have longer fins than is usual. So males and females who's fins are 'above average' in length. If your male does have very long fins compaired to other males, then you can deffinately use him to try to produce even more long-finned fish - but you'll need a female with larger-than-usual fins as well
Abnormalities are not always due to inbreeding - inbreeding simply makes them more likely to show up.
If you are thinking about increasing the size, would you also consider reducing it? Lol - I think miniature three-spots would be wonderful! You could keep them in smaller tanks, breed them in smaller tanks etc
Yes, you could use a platinum but you'll not get the lovely bright lavender colors. It'll be washed out and probably rather brownish.
All male gouramies have long fins compaired to females so breeding to your male probably won't have a huge effect. What you need is both males and females that have longer fins than is usual. So males and females who's fins are 'above average' in length. If your male does have very long fins compaired to other males, then you can deffinately use him to try to produce even more long-finned fish - but you'll need a female with larger-than-usual fins as well
Abnormalities are not always due to inbreeding - inbreeding simply makes them more likely to show up.
If you are thinking about increasing the size, would you also consider reducing it? Lol - I think miniature three-spots would be wonderful! You could keep them in smaller tanks, breed them in smaller tanks etc
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