Breeder traps are EVIL!!!

[guppymonkey]

I don't quite see the justification here. How can any tank be better than the wild? At least in their swamp they can choose to swim elsewhere if they don't like the conditions, whereas in a half gallon tank they can't do anything if the water becomes bad. Since they have lived there for ages, their environment can't be all bad for them. They're adapted to low oxygen and don't have problems with it, and I don't think human feces (in the wild that is, where they are quickly broken down into other things) are much worse than whatever chemicals (such as fertilizers) or compounds exist in a tank.

Human feces are hardly broken down quickly. Unlike herbivore manure (like from cows) human feces contains very high amounts of meat because of the diet that most people have. Also human digestive systems aren't very good at breaking anything down. So the human manure takes a long time to break down especially when the natural oxygen levels are low and the bacteria that break down the maure use up the rest of the oxygen. As for them being better or worse then chemicals in a tank I would have to say that poop is worse then anything I put in my tank. I only use the dechlorinator.

The argument that its good for the fish because they have always lived there isn't valid either. Just because they have lived there doesn't mean its good for them. People live never Chernobyl in Ukraine but I doubt its good for them because they have lived there for generations. Over thousands of years bettas grew used to low oxygen levels but that doesn't include the water pollution that has become even more of a problem as civilization has grown.

The fish trade betta is a completely different specimen than the native betta anyways. I doubt the domestic betta would last more than a few days in the wild. Like the fancy guppy, the domestic betta has been imbred to the extent that it has different needs then the wild betta.

 

[Morrgan]

Human feces are hardly broken down quickly. Unlike herbivore manure (like from cows) human feces contains very high amounts of meat because of the diet that most people have.

One would think that feces from other carnivores have ended up in water even before humans. Yet fish are alive. Still, the increasing number of humans isn't exactly making things better for the environment.

The argument that its good for the fish because they have always lived there isn't valid either. Just because they have lived there doesn't mean its good for them...
...Over thousands of years bettas grew used to low oxygen levels but that doesn't include the water pollution that has become even more of a problem as civilization has grown.

To be exact, I said that it can't be "all bad", not that it was good. Still, I didn't consider the effects of pollution. Taking that into account, their natural habitat can't be what it once was.

The fish trade betta is a completely different specimen than the native betta anyways. I doubt the domestic betta would last more than a few days in the wild. Like the fancy guppy, the domestic betta has been imbred to the extent that it has different needs then the wild betta.

So why compare captivity vs. nature in the first place then, when the domestic betta wouldn't even survive in the wild? Seems a bit pointless.

 

[guppymonkey]

So why compare captivity vs. nature in the first place then, when the domestic betta wouldn't even survive in the wild? Seems a bit pointless.

A good point but without arguments this board would get boring very quickly.

 

[rollntider]

Are the cats and dogs staying in the boxes for days and giving birth in the boxes? I doubt it. And if they are staying for days in the pet boxes then its animal cruelty and thats illegal.



Considering that bettas have been bred to live in small containers for hundreds of generations

no but I do have a friend that puts them in a boarding kennel and they stay in the cage for as long as he is away. Although they do take his pet for walks but most of the time is spent in a cage. Also several pet stores and the humane shelters around here have the dogs/cats in small cages that are about the size of breeder nets to pet size. I will be sure to ask the shelters and pet owners this when i go and see how they feel. Since I know most of the local pet stores anyways. I usually never have mine in a breeder net for more than 48 hours anyways. and I dont see how you can excuse a beta being in a small container but not excuse a breeder net for a few days use. besides my fry are raised in the small space for the firs few weeks, as I am sure a lot of the people that use them are....so using that logic my 4th generation platies(that I have raised) should be accustomed to the net?
(Sorry so late in responding, just got back into town)


also I will agree on the vase point with you but I feel all fish should have adequate space...and the breeder traps are temporary(or should be) and for a short period of time I think is ok....

 

[-Chewy-]

This is just my opinion on this. I think that why worry about stressing mother guppies in a small breeder net when there are thousands of mindless rookies out there that go to the LFS to buy a trio of guppies every three days because they can't keep 'em alive?? I mean, why not start on those people and teach them the right way of fish keeping and stop killing guppies from their unbelieveable nirate and ammonia level?? Isn't that more cruel than putting guppies in breeder net

-Chewy-

 

[rollntider]

This is just my opinion on this. I think that why worry about stressing mother guppies in a small breeder net when there are thousands of mindless rookies out there that go to the LFS to buy a trio of guppies every three days because they can't keep 'em alive?? I mean, why not start on those people and teach them the right way of fish keeping and stop killing guppies from their unbelieveable nirate and ammonia level?? Isn't that more cruel than putting guppies in breeder net

-Chewy-

I would think that is a more valid argument

 

[-Chewy-]

yea, rollntider, i totally agree.
Its the same thing with dyeing fishes. It's cruel, it's bad and it shouldn't be done. BUT don't you think there are more people who are more cruel to fishes than those who are dyeing and putting guppies in breeder net??
Why not start on the more critical area of fish cruelty - the rookies!??

-Chewy-

 

[Sang72]

Well, IMHO I think it's the whole concept of the greater good.

Breeder nets may not be what the fish have in the wild, but neither are aquariums. Wild cats, dogs, ferrets, rabbits, hmsters, lizards, etc. have thousands of acres to roam, yet most are kept within a yard or home or cage.

Some food for thought.

is it more cruel to place a spawning female in a breeder net or allow it's fry to be eaten by tankmates. In the wild, the fry will be widely dispersed by currents and such. Take a boat ride on a natural lake with a fish finder and compare the inches of fish per gallon to your tank. Many tankmates would never encounter each other in the wild. Even if you have plants, some of the fry will become snacks.

Is it more cruel to spay/neuter your cat/dog/ferret, or allow it to mate and produce litter after litter of either unwanted or hard to place kittens/puppies. (unmated and unspayed female cats are at higher risk of disease and organ failure. Female ferrets can die if not impregnated in heat. Sort of the whole Darwin principle, if it can't reproduce it shouldn't be competing for resources that would be used by reproducing ones)

Is it more cruel to keep your pet indoors, or confined to a yard? Or allow it to run free and be hit by a car, stolen for research, eat poisons outside (antifreeze is a deadly toxin leaked all over the place and tastes sweet to cats and dogs), or just tortured and mutilated by disturbed people (this happens more often than we want to think about)

Of course there are solutions, we can get another tank, we can buy a ranch and a lot of food for cats and dogs, etc. But I personally haven't won the lottery yet, and am limited in my resources (don't know how to spay a fish).

Maybe we just shouldn't have pets, however scientific research has shown that the benefits of owning pets is both quantifiable an qualitative. (cats and dogs reduce blood pressure, aquariums reduce stress. Pets have been shown to help older people living alone life longer, healthier, happier lives). Many pets need homes or will be killed (I found two of my kitties living in an abandoned car in the rain in 50 degree weather...long story))

When we domesticate animals, we expose them to hazards that they do not encounter in the wild, but these animals are "domesticated" and have adapted (more or less dependending on species) to the environment they were bred for.

Just my $0.02

Chewie, we were all rookies at one point in time. However irresponsible rookies who don't seek good advice are evil.

 

[-Chewy-]

Absolutely I agree with what you're saying Sang72. Everyone was once a rookie too. I had a hard time starting out with fishkeeping and quite a number of fishes died under me. Now, that is only one person. thousands and thousands are starting fishkeeping everyday, and compare that to the number of people putting guppies in breeder net or dyeing fishes, there's really nothing to compare!! Besides, the pain of being put in a breeder net or being dyed cannot be compared to the pain of dying from people who think fishkeeping is just dumping a fish in a tank of tapwater!!

-Chewy-

 

[rollntider]

Bravo Sang and Chewey, you 2 understand my point. I agree I wished I didnt have to put them in a breeder net but alas I do for their well being. Just like needles hurt and yet is needed to vacinate me , my pet etc.....great points. Sometimes it has to be done.

 

[-Chewy-]

i would like to see what guppymonkey has to say.....

 

[iloveyou]

they work well i think... i use em a lot.... less stressfull then having 5 males around u non stop while ur tryin to have birth and after..... so ya

 

[motherof6]

I tried to read all of the posts and forgive me if this has already been said.

I see two different types of breeders being metioned.

IMO I do not like the breeder boxes. They are small and plastic. They restrict movement and water flow. I used one of these when I firsts started with Guppies. I lost both birthing moms one right after birth and one before.

I then bought a larger net type. It was abut the same price but huge compared to the plastic box (4x the size). I keep plants in it for birthing. I have never lost a mom and get to save my fry.

So when you say breeders traps are evil are you meaning all types?