Bottled Bacteria.

[The Taffy Apple]

Good evening all, i hope this thread finds you all well and enjoying your festive period <SantaSmilie>

I have been reading a fair few amount of 'newbie' posts regarding the starting of new tanks recently and what they need and when they may need it.. the usual, helpful comments always follow, as they always do, but one thing i do notice is how many of the new hobbyists are told that the bottled bacteria they have bought is seen as useles, a waste of money and not proven to work (i bought a product and used it, thinking i 'understood' what it did).

I came across this ----> http/www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=215468&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=15 this morning and must say i thoroughly enjoyed reading what he had to say, especially how he believed our beneficial bacteria has a'shelf-life' of 12 months.

Has anyone used 'Dr.Tim's' products ? Has anyone read of such a report before? If so, did it work?

Regards,
Terry.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I have read this in the past. I've not used Dr. Tim's product. I used Tetra Safestart to mixed results - full cycle in 23 days of fishless cycling.

 

[Siggy75]

I think this forum is very anti-bottled bacteria, I've noticed that others are a bit more receptive to it. I suppose that's the nature of forums - attracting like-minded people.

As a newbie I'd be frightened to mention the bottled stuff for fear of being shot down like other people.

 

[soybean]

I think this forum is very anti-bottled bacteria, I've noticed that others are a bit more receptive to it. I suppose that's the nature of forums - attracting like-minded people.

As a newbie I'd be frightened to mention the bottled stuff for fear of being shot down like other people.

No one will shoot you down for using it - you'd be hard pressed to find a single member of the forum who hasn't tried these products themselves when they were starting out. Think how often they are included in 'complete set-ups' for example - it's easy to think they're essential.

A great number of people on here have used them in comparison to doing a fishless cycle with ammonia, and the evidence speaks for itself - I don't think I've ever seen a post saying "It's a miracle, cycled in a week like it claimed on the bottle!".

My view is that used properly and in addition to partially cycled media, they can be at most an aid to fully cycling a tank, enabling perhaps to increase the stock of the tank before the filter is able to cope with the bioload. That's just my opinion. And I only include very few products in that - the vast majority off the shelf have proved themselves to me to be little more than water with bits in.

There's a thread just below this one - here - covering this issue in detail at the moment.

Edit to add: I notice in that thread somebody says their tank has "a reading [of] Ammonia at between .5 and 1ppm and the Nitrite is between 1 and 2ppm", to which the Dr Tim sponsor replies "the level you report are not really that toxic".

Ammonia and nitrite both cause damage to fish, so I would take anything this person says with a large pinch of salt.

 

[The Taffy Apple]

I think this forum is very anti-bottled bacteria, I've noticed that others are a bit more receptive to it. I suppose that's the nature of forums - attracting like-minded people.

As a newbie I'd be frightened to mention the bottled stuff for fear of being shot down like other people.

I really wouldn't see you as being 'shot down' on this forum for mentioning such bottled bacteria in all honesty, i believe the vast majority of the more experienced member may simply brush away such a product, IE: by simply telling you their opinions of such a product.

Would you say the other forum/s you may have used are more receptive for a reason? It's interesting, really, seeing which forums and what type of fishkeeper have different views on bottled bacteria.

Terry.

 

[The Taffy Apple]

oooops... apologies for the same thread topic in such close proximity... that will teach me not to scroll down to the bottom of the page before contributing a topic...


Terry.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

I was doing an experiment with a product called Biozyme. It is supposedly freeze dried nitrifying bacteria that has no shelf life. Its not the typical liquid bacterial miracle that we hear about. I got about 1 week and a half in before my filter broke and I havent had money to buy a new one. But anyways, before the experiement was put on hold, I was reading nitrates in 6 days. I do not know if the product "worked" per say, but it was hastening up the ammonia reduction. The key part of the experiment was to see if the tank stayed stable after the week long dosing. You can read more about what I did here : http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/378634-biozyme/page__p__3170151__hl__biozyme__fromsearch__1#entry3170151

Hopefully I can restart and actually finish this experiment. It would be great if it worked.

 

[MBOU]

I've used both ammonia cycling and bottled bacteria cycling and will always stick with the bottled bacteria.

I also hear from all my customers too so have lots to base my opinion on and tbh, if used properly and within the right parameters, the bottled stuff is exactly the same to use as ammonia, though a LOT easier to dose and a lot less risky. Timing wise was similar, i found some brands of bottled bacteria worked an awful lot faster and remained just as stable.

I just think different tanks/types of filters/size of tank etc all require different brands of the bacteria as some work better in different situations. Also thinks like the hardness, the temperature etc and levels in the tapwater all seem to make a difference to how well it works...

Personally i have found that Cycle isnt very good any more as the changed the ingredients but the Aqua Care Biological Bacteria (MAs own brand) is repackaged old style cycle and is better by a long way though the instructions are vague and useless IMO.

"Bioactive" tapsafe seems really good for ongoing waterchanges in small tanks as its a dechlorinator and tops up the bacteria.

Safestart... well, never found it much help and with s many other brands, rarely need to sell it.

Stress Coat and Stress Zyme are excelant and one i used on my own tanks for regular maintenance though found they werent that great for the initial cycle...

To me, the best combo has to be Evolution Aquas "pure" gel bacteria balls and BioActive Tapsafe. Might not be supposed to work together but they honestly work great and the bioactive tapsafe is really concentrated. But the gel bacterial supplement is genius, havent found much use for them in ponds and found they work amazing in salt water (though makes no logical sense that it should).

 

[Primous]

I have been reading a fair few amount of 'newbie' posts regarding the starting of new tanks recently and what they need and when they may need it..

If you're referring to me I think it'd be wise to point out to you that a members post count or lack of has no bearing on their knowledge of this hobby, or lack of...

I was reading through that thread which was heavy on Dr T backed claims and then I came across something soybean has kind enough to point out

I notice in that thread somebody says their tank has "a reading [of] Ammonia at between .5 and 1ppm and the Nitrite is between 1 and 2ppm", to which the Dr Tim sponsor replies "the level you report are not really that toxic".

Then I closed the forum tab and made a promise never to return to it.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

As a MT certified lab tech, with experience in Microbiology, I can say that there is not a liquid media that will keep a bacteria alive and viable for a year in anaerobic conditions. There is simply not enough of a food source. The sole purpose of bacteria culturing media is the give the bacteria a food supply that is adequate for colonization. There is no way to do this in a bottle, unless you are opening the bottle everyday and feeding the little bugs. While Nitrobacter species can live in anaerobic conditions (it is not a strict anaerobe, which is why it can live off of oxygen as well) there is not a nutritional supply to give it a year long shlef life. The only way to preserve a bacteria, and keep it viable to colonize later, is to freeze dry it. Then the bacteria is no longer active, and stays alive in a dormant state that does not require any type of nutrition. This is the way we preserve bacterial cultures to do quality control. So I do know that freeze drying bacteria does keep it alive.

I think this guy is full of it. For someone to say that .5 ammon and 1-2 nitrite is not really that toxic ought to be kicked in the head. While it may not kill the fish at that moment, the long term affects will be seen a lot sooner than the fishes projected lifespan.

 

[Primous]

@Dieses Madchen Thanks for your input I think it's put's things in perspective. I have a question and one humongus request. My question is would the freeze drying process be hard to put into mass production and what would be the likely cost.


The second request is a little more complex. I stumbled across a blog once where a guy went to lab and tested a number of leading bottled cycling bacs and took pics. Do you think you could buy say 5 of these bacs (block the packaging lol) and make a vid of what is actually in these bottles. I think that that would do huge numbers on youtube if posted. Just an idea but I think it would lay to rest what these dusty plastic bottles actually contain.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

I do not know the cost of what it would take to freeze dry the bacteria. I do know that Biozyme is the only company I have seen that does it. I have experimented with the Biozyme via fishless cycle and have seen that it does have cycling affects, but will not "instantly" cycle a tank. I have used it in my established tanks. When I purchase new fish, I add it, and I have yet to see a nitrite spike above .25 when ading 5+ fish.

I do plan on conducting an experiment at work when I get the neccessary culturing info about nitrobactor and nitrosomas. I would like to culture the bottle bacteria in a micro setting and see if it colonizes. I will get to it one day.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I do not know the cost of what it would take to freeze dry the bacteria. I do know that Biozyme is the only company I have seen that does it. I have experimented with the Biozyme via fishless cycle and have seen that it does have cycling affects, but will not "instantly" cycle a tank. I have used it in my established tanks. When I purchase new fish, I add it, and I have yet to see a nitrite spike above .25 when ading 5+ fish.

I will mention that I have added 5+ fish multiple times without adding ANYTHING to my tank, and never had nitrite spike at all.


Ultimately, a mature filter can handle a 50% increase in stocking level without a problem. I've successfully added a 9 fish shoal of neons to my 55 gallon without any issue. So, depending on what the situation is, Biozyme could be doing nothing at all.

 

[trianglekitty]

I can only speak from my experience. I was forced into a fish-in cycle due to rescuing some fish. I did water changes daily for months, but the cycle seemed 'stuck' and I never had nitrates. My LFS suggested the tetra bacteria product, which they did keep refrigerated.

Within twenty-four hours my tank started to show nitrates. I can't prove it was the product and not sheer chance, but I do know I was grateful that I didn't need to lift buckets everyday!

 

[AbbeysDad]

Well I'll add another $.02 just for the heck of it.
It is a given that starting a new tank with a bio-seed gives the tank a head start in establishing a beneficial bacteria colony. I think there will always be a question of the effectiveness of preparations because all of these concoctions have a shelf life and to my knowledge, these things aren't dated like foods. I also question products that recommend their use with each water change (or adding stock) as this 'advice' makes no sense at all. I also see poster(s) here comparing bio-seeds to water conditioners which are very different.

I think it's very possible that 'bacteria in a bottle' can remain viable for quite some time, however, the exact duration is dependent on may variables, not the least of which is time and temperature. I would think that such cultures would survive much longer when refrigerated, than when exposed to high temperatures in warehouses and trucks...after all, it is a living culture, but often treated like dry goods.

So I'd say buyer beware. Whenever possible, start a new tank with your own bio-seed - a handful of susbtrate from an established tank will beat bio-bottle every time.