Bolivian Ram Sexing

[Byron]

Photos below are:
1. Pair of wild Mikrogeophagus ramirezi (male left, female right)
2. Pair of spawning M. altispinosus (upper fish male, lower fish female)

 

[Byron]

They don't pay any attention to any of the other fish at all. Normally they're fine together, but every once in a while one will have a go at the other. Then they'll run at each other (like ) a time or two. Then it's over.

As I said, just monitor, that is not trouble--yet. Nothing further may develop. It is when they become serious and one of them bullies the other so that the targeted fish loses colour, hides, etc, that separation is required to save it.

 

[Avel1896]

Are you sure they are wild on 1st pic ??

 

[noobfish]

Photos below are:
1. Pair of wild Mikrogeophagus ramirezi (male left, female right)
2. Pair of spawning M. altispinosus (upper fish male, lower fish female)

So the male has extensions on the tail fin? Is that what you were calling caudal? I'll have to watch to see if any of this develops. Not sure on age, but they're on about 1.25" right now.

 

[Byron]

Are you sure they are wild on 1st pic ??

The source of this photo was/is Seriously Fish. The photo is by Enrico Richter. Wild fish of this species are far more colourful than the commercial tank raised fish, which is not surprising.

Mikrogeophagus ramirezi – Ram (Apistogramma ramirezi, Papiliochromis ramirezi, Microgeophagus ramirezi) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

 

[Byron]

So the male has extensions on the tail fin? Is that what you were calling caudal? I'll have to watch to see if any of this develops. Not sure on age, but they're on about 1.25" right now.

Yes to both questions. And this would probably be evident by now. But I have a bit of backup for thinking this...your description of their interactions. I can assure you, two males would not tolerate each other to the degree these two fish are described as doing, and one male/one female would likely be much more obvious too.

 

[Avel1896]

So the male has extensions on the tail fin? Is that what you were calling caudal? I'll have to watch to see if any of this develops. Not sure on age, but they're on about 1.25" right now.

Make them flare

The source of this photo was/is Seriously Fish. The photo is by Enrico Richter. Wild fish of this species are far more colourful than the commercial tank raised fish, which is not surprising.

I doubt it's a pair but rather 2 males.

 

[Byron]

I doubt it's a pair but rather 2 males.

The colouration does not support this. Right fish is a female.

Also--and this is going out on a limb because this is a photo and not video--but the male's position slightly under the female is very typical of a pair.

 

[Avel1896]

You have your opinion I have mine
If OP makes them flare there will be an answer.

 

[noobfish]

You have your opinion I have mine
If OP makes them flare there will be an answer.

Held a mirror. They both looked, but didn't attack or go crazy.

As for flaring, they both do it when I walk up to the tank. Neither seem to have any great extension of front dorsal. The smaller has slight extensions of the tail. Very slight and no where near the photo Byron posted.

 

[Avel1896]

Held a mirror. They both looked, but didn't attack or go crazy.

As for flaring, they both do it when I walk up to the tank. Neither seem to have any great extension of front dorsal. The smaller has slight extensions of the tail. Very slight and no where near the photo Byron posted.

Either immatures or two females. Do it again in some days.

 

[noobfish]

Back to these bolivians. The smaller one, who was initially the aggressor, has stopped eating. Cichlid pellets fall in front of him, he'll even pick one up, but then spits it and moves away. Did my usual Saturday WC today and a couple hours later I noticed his right pectoral fin is clamped. The larger of the 2 is eating well and always comes to the front when I'm around. Smaller hides. Only thing with the larger is that his tail is a bit tattered. Not sure who the culprit is (tankmates are tetras, pictus cat, bn pleco, and the other bolivian).
So what's the deal with the smaller? Think they're having a go at each other? Should I separate?

 

[Byron]

Back to these bolivians. The smaller one, who was initially the aggressor, has stopped eating. Cichlid pellets fall in front of him, he'll even pick one up, but then spits it and moves away. Did my usual Saturday WC today and a couple hours later I noticed his right pectoral fin is clamped. The larger of the 2 is eating well and always comes to the front when I'm around. Smaller hides. Only thing with the larger is that his tail is a bit tattered. Not sure who the culprit is (tankmates are tetras, pictus cat, bn pleco, and the other bolivian).
So what's the deal with the smaller? Think they're having a go at each other? Should I separate?

A video of interactive behaviour would help, but I appreciate that with one in hiding they are not likely interacting. This could be an issue between them, as I pointed out in post #17 above. But you have also now mentioned a pictus catfish, and this is an issue.

Compatibility/Temperament: Peaceful but it is predatory and as it matures it will eat small fish. Should be kept in a small group of at least 5; single fish may pine away. Tankmates should not include sedate fish like angels, discus, gourami and even cichlids as these will be pestered by the nocturnal habits of this catfish.​

As this is likely occurring after dark (if it is occurring, not saying it is, just might be) you obviously will not see it. I would myself consider it is more likely the two Bolivians, they are not getting along and this is not at all uncommon, whatever their genders.

 

[noobfish]

A video of interactive behaviour would help, but I appreciate that with one in hiding they are not likely interacting. This could be an issue between them, as I pointed out in post #17 above. But you have also now mentioned a pictus catfish, and this is an issue.

Compatibility/Temperament: Peaceful but it is predatory and as it matures it will eat small fish. Should be kept in a small group of at least 5; single fish may pine away. Tankmates should not include sedate fish like angels, discus, gourami and even cichlids as these will be pestered by the nocturnal habits of this catfish.​

As this is likely occurring after dark (if it is occurring, not saying it is, just might be) you obviously will not see it. I would myself consider it is more likely the two Bolivians, they are not getting along and this is not at all uncommon, whatever their genders.

The rams were always side by side until this past week. Now I never see them together.
I considered the pictus, but the tetras are fine and are smaller than the ram (though they operate in a different part of the water column).
I'll try pulling the small ram and putting him in the qt for now.

 

[itiwhetu]

I think the two fish are young males, just let themselves to sort things out rams are usually fine together. Just make sure you have a good cave net work and heaps of plants to give the individual fish protection from each other.