Bettas

[quentin247]

hi

i just bought my first tropical fish today (1 male, and 2 female siamese fighting fish and 4 neon tetras) and was just wondering if it was safe to keep these fish together as i read that the males can be aggressive and may kill other fish. i have had them for 5 hours and the male keeps chasing both the female bettas and the neons round the tank. is this a big problem?

 

[Honeythorn]

Yes it's a very big problem. You really ought to have researched the fish before even thinking about getting them but it's too late for that. here's what you need to do.

Separate the male as soon as possible , go out and buy a breeding net and put him in it inside the tank. Then you need to get a separate tank for him on his own. If you can't afford a tank right now, get a big clear plastic storage bin , at least 12 inches all round and set that up with a sponge filter and a heater the same way you would a tank. Then put him in that with some fake plants to rest on and hide in. You can cut holes around the edges of the lid of the bin to accomodate the wires from the heater and filter. drill a few in the top of the lid itself to allow air in. Keep the lid on so he can't jump out for any reason. Do daily 50% water changes on the tub with dechlorinated water.

If you don't have a spare sponge filter you can make one in a few minutes. HERE is a link on how to do it.

The male must be kept in his own tank from now on. Many will argue that 2-3 gallons will suffice. I have always considered 5 to be a minimum as it's easier to keep stable in terms of water chemistry and has more swimming space. It's your fish and your choice however.



You must never keep male and female bettas together unless you are breeding them ( and even then you have to take the female out after ) As you've seen, the male will chase them and harrass them almost constantly. Females also like to be in groups. The more the better so you need a few more. The same goes for tetras. Tetras should also not be kept with male bettas, as they have a tendency to nip their long fins, which can quickly become diseased.

How big is your tank by the way? And have you cycled it? Because Neon tetras have become wuite delicate fish now due to being inbred so much. They could well die first if the tank isn't cycled.

 

[quentin247]

Yes it's a very big problem. You really ought to have researched the fish before even thinking about getting them but it's too late for that. here's what you need to do.

Separate the male as soon as possible , go out and buy a breeding net and put him in it inside the tank. Then you need to get a separate tank for him on his own. If you can't afford a tank right now, get a big clear plastic storage bin , at least 12 inches all round and set that up with a sponge filter and a heater the same way you would a tank. Then put him in that with some fake plants to rest on and hide in. You can cut holes around the edges of the lid of the bin to accomodate the wires from the heater and filter. drill a few in the top of the lid itself to allow air in. Keep the lid on so he can't jump out for any reason. Do daily 50% water changes on the tub with dechlorinated water.

If you don't have a spare sponge filter you can make one in a few minutes. HERE is a link on how to do it.

The male must be kept in his own tank from now on. Many will argue that 2-3 gallons will suffice. I have always considered 5 to be a minimum as it's easier to keep stable in terms of water chemistry and has more swimming space. It's your fish and your choice however.



You must never keep male and female bettas together unless you are breeding them ( and even then you have to take the female out after ) As you've seen, the male will chase them and harrass them almost constantly. Females also like to be in groups. The more the better so you need a few more. The same goes for tetras. Tetras should also not be kept with male bettas, as they have a tendency to nip their long fins, which can quickly become diseased.

How big is your tank by the way? And have you cycled it? Because Neon tetras have become wuite delicate fish now due to being inbred so much. They could well die first if the tank isn't cycled.

i have a 4.6 gallon tank and am not sure exactly what cycling is. when i went to the pet shop they assured me that running the tank for 24 hours with the heater, pump and after adding chemicals would be fine and that fish could then be introduced

 

[Corleone]

i have a 4.6 gallon tank and am not sure exactly what cycling is. when i went to the pet shop they assured me that running the tank for 24 hours with the heater, pump and after adding chemicals would be fine and that fish could then be introduced

What you got is common pet store advice, but it's not correct. It was the way things were done some time ago, but at the very least, you need a test kit.

You should review these two topics immediately, if you're unfamiliar with cycling. Cycling related problems is the biggest cause of fish death, and the biggest cause of people giving up on keeping fish.

What is cycling/cycling with fish:
http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...eady-have-fish/

Ideally, return the fish and proceed with a fishless cycle, as the betta mix you have is a timebomb:
http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...shless-Cycling/
Your tank is big enough for the two females, or the male, but together, either the females will end up killing the male, or vice versa. Even with just the females, you could end up with a dead fish, generally females do best alone or in large enough groups to spread aggression and prevent a dominant fish from picking off weaker tankmates.

 

[Honeythorn]

Your pet shop have no idea what they're on about.

You have FAR too many fish in that tank. You either need to set up a 10-20 gallon tank for the female bettas and the tetras, and leave the male in the 4.6 gallon, or take the females and the tetras back to the shop and get a refund. If you keep all those in a tank that small you'll kill them. If they don't kill eachother first.

Basically cycling is where bacteria need to grow inside the sponges in your filter, and they eat the waste ( poo ect ) produced by your fish and make it less toxic to them . If you don't have a filter, or you have one that hasn't cycled ( grown enough bacteria to cope with the waste ) then the waste builds up in the water and will very quickly make your fish very ill. It very often kills them within a week or two. You need to cycle a filter in order to keep the waste as low as possible so it doesn't harm your fish. You must also do frequent water changes. Especially since you have such a small tank, you should replace at least 25% of the water in the tank twice a week. Make sure the water you put back in has been treated with Dechlorinator .

Read THIS. It will tell you two methods of Cycling your filter.

But before that you really should take the female bettas and the neons back to the shop and demand a refund. ( I hope you kept the reciept ? ) You honestly do not have anywhere near enough space for them in 4.6 gallons.

That tank you have will be fine to keep just your male betta, but not the rest.

 

[quentin247]

Your pet shop have no idea what they're on about.

You have FAR too many fish in that tank. You either need to set up a 10-20 gallon tank for the female bettas and the tetras, and leave the male in the 4.6 gallon, or take the females and the tetras back to the shop and get a refund. If you keep all those in a tank that small you'll kill them. If they don't kill eachother first.

Basically cycling is where bacteria need to grow inside the sponges in your filter, and they eat the waste ( poo ect ) produced by your fish and make it less toxic to them . If you don't have a filter, or you have one that hasn't cycled ( grown enough bacteria to cope with the waste ) then the waste builds up in the water and will very quickly make your fish very ill. It very often kills them within a week or two. You need to cycle a filter in order to keep the waste as low as possible so it doesn't harm your fish. You must also do frequent water changes. Especially since you have such a small tank, you should replace at least 25% of the water in the tank twice a week. Make sure the water you put back in has been treated with Dechlorinator .

Read THIS. It will tell you two methods of Cycling your filter.

But before that you really should take the female bettas and the neons back to the shop and demand a refund. ( I hope you kept the reciept ? ) You honestly do not have anywhere near enough space for them in 4.6 gallons.

That tank you have will be fine to keep just your male betta, but not the rest.

i will sort out the problem in the morning when the pet shop opens but for tonight what should i do?

 

[Honeythorn]

I doubt there's much you can do until tomorrow. Unless you happen to have a breeding trap or something with which to separate the male from the other fish?

 

[NonstickRon]

Your pet shop have no idea what they're on about.

You have FAR too many fish in that tank. You either need to set up a 10-20 gallon tank for the female bettas and the tetras, and leave the male in the 4.6 gallon, or take the females and the tetras back to the shop and get a refund. If you keep all those in a tank that small you'll kill them. If they don't kill eachother first.

Basically cycling is where bacteria need to grow inside the sponges in your filter, and they eat the waste ( poo ect ) produced by your fish and make it less toxic to them . If you don't have a filter, or you have one that hasn't cycled ( grown enough bacteria to cope with the waste ) then the waste builds up in the water and will very quickly make your fish very ill. It very often kills them within a week or two. You need to cycle a filter in order to keep the waste as low as possible so it doesn't harm your fish. You must also do frequent water changes. Especially since you have such a small tank, you should replace at least 25% of the water in the tank twice a week. Make sure the water you put back in has been treated with Dechlorinator .

Read THIS. It will tell you two methods of Cycling your filter.

But before that you really should take the female bettas and the neons back to the shop and demand a refund. ( I hope you kept the reciept ? ) You honestly do not have anywhere near enough space for them in 4.6 gallons.

That tank you have will be fine to keep just your male betta, but not the rest.

i will sort out the problem in the morning when the pet shop opens but for tonight what should i do?

Put that male in a bucket, or a large bowl, or storage bin, water pitcher, whatever.

Most pet stores don't care if you kill fish. If you do, its likely you'll buy more stuff from them. Most pet store employees are only repeating things they're told to tell customers.

 

[quentin247]

I doubt there's much you can do until tomorrow. Unless you happen to have a breeding trap or something with which to separate the male from the other fish?

well i have caught the male in the bag he came in and suspended the bag in the tank by trapping it in the lid (i havent cut off his air). i also caught 1 of the females in the same way to protect the tetras as the other one seems rather docile and hasnt chased any other fish yet.
thank you for your help

p.s, the tank is 4.6 uk gallons (21 litres), is that any better?

 

[quentin247]

I doubt there's much you can do until tomorrow. Unless you happen to have a breeding trap or something with which to separate the male from the other fish?

well i have caught the male in the bag he came in and suspended the bag in the tank by trapping it in the lid (i havent cut off his air). i also caught 1 of the females in the same way to protect the tetras as the other one seems rather docile and hasnt chased any other fish yet.
thank you for your help

p.s, the tank is 4.6 uk gallons (21 litres), is that any better?

also, at the start of the 24 hours they recommended, i put in some concentrated bacteria stuff, some of this:http/www.petcentreonline.co.uk/ecommerce/ProdImages/A7600.gif

 

[NonstickRon]

I doubt there's much you can do until tomorrow. Unless you happen to have a breeding trap or something with which to separate the male from the other fish?

well i have caught the male in the bag he came in and suspended the bag in the tank by trapping it in the lid (i havent cut off his air). i also caught 1 of the females in the same way to protect the tetras as the other one seems rather docile and hasnt chased any other fish yet.
thank you for your help

p.s, the tank is 4.6 uk gallons (21 litres), is that any better?

also, at the start of the 24 hours they recommended, i put in some concentrated bacteria stuff, some of this:http/www.petcentreonline.co.uk/ecommerce/ProdImages/A7600.gif

Awesome, that should help your cycle along. Won't make it instant though.

Did you buy a test kit?

 

[OldMan47]

That cycle stuff was probably sitting on the pet shop shelf for the last 6 months waiting for someone to buy it. That type of thing has largely been proven useless by people who have tried it. I'm sure they would be happy to sell you more if they could get you to buy it again but it would be a waste of your money.

 

[quentin247]

so if i keep adding the bacteria, how long should it take? and i shouldnt need to buy more after i use it up right? just the conditioner?

 

[Corleone]

Might as well just dump it all in. It'll do as much good that way as any other. I think cycle is in the same vein as stability and it's safe to do that.

If it didn't work (Don't count on it working), it'll take a month or so. You really do need a test kit - the API freshwater master kit is popular, but most any liquid test kit that handles ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate will do. Spend your money on the kit rather than more cycle.

You'll want to monitor water stats, especially ammonia and nitrite. Cycling with fish can take a month to six weeks, and you'll need to monitor ammonia and nitrite and do water changes to keep it below 0.25 to minimize stress and risk of poisoning or disease for your fish. Even if the cycle failed, the bacteria will grow on their own. IF it worked, you could cut that down any amount, might take a month or might take two weeks. Don't gamble though, get a test kit. Most important thing in your arsenal, and will often be enough diagnose a lot of common problems, especially in an unestablished tank.

 

[LauraFrog]

The bacteria will not do very much at all because they are all dead. They cannot survive on a pet store shelf with fluctuating temperatures and no oxygen or ammonia. What you need to do is either take back all the fish and cycle the tank fishless, or else keep either the neons or the betta (I recommend the betta, neons won't be comfortable in that small tank and probably won't survive the cycle) and cycle fish in.

If you cycle fishless it may take up to 4 weeks regardless of whether you add the dead bacteria or not. Fish in will take the same amount of time but is a LOT more work and worry.

If you're in the US, add biospira, in Australia aquarium science Ecostart, in UK Bactinettes. Those are the only beneficial bacteria products that are alive and actually work. Biospira and Bactinettes are refrigerated, Ecostart is freezedried. They may cut your cycle time down to as little as a week. If you can put cycled filter media in your filter (ask the pet shop) you can cut your cycle time right down or maybe even avoid doing a cycle at all, if all you have in the tank is the male betta and you do water changes twice a week.