Best Treatment For Flukes?

[targa66]

I've had an ongoing mystery problem - i have a fully cycled 156 litre planted tank in which I've got swordtails and fry of varying sizes, a few rosy and neon tetras, and two guppies. A few swordtails suddenly went noticeably paler in the last month or two (one just died yesterday), and there's been a few unexplained deaths over the last year, especially with the guppies.
Water parameters are all good - 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 7.4 pH.
I do 30% water changes at least once per week.

Last winter, I had an infestation of camanallus, which I treated with levamisole. It worked beautifully - no evidence whatsoever of a recurrence. I don't think the recent deaths are camanallus b/c I can't see any nematodes like before. But there's still something going on in there that's weakening and occasionally killing the fish - not the tetras, but especially the guppies and sometimes a swordtail.

I'm starting to wonder if it's flukes - the guppies have always flicked and all the fish seem to need to go to the surface more than they should.

Can anyone recommend the best treatment for flukes? I've read that you can do salt baths, but would rather just treat the whole tank! What about "Fluke Tabs?" I'm in the UK but can order stuff from the States.

I've also got two smaller tanks with swordtail fry and some guppies - they seem unaffected. (I would love to put the guppies in my big tank but am afraid they'll die too!)

many thanks,
Shelly

 

[Colin_T]

You can add salt to the tank to kill flukes but if you have corydoras catfish or discus then don't because they don't like the salt.
A company called Aqua Master do a product called Fluke & Tapeworm Tablets and it works well. It is Praziquantel (used for treating cats & dogs for tapeworm) and is used at 100mg of Praziquantel per 20litres of tank water. Do a partial water change a couple of days later and re-treat the tank a week later.

Try and avoid using medications containing Trichlorphon (Masoten, Dipterex) as it no longer works on most flukes or external parasites due to its miss-use over the years.

 

[targa66]

You can add salt to the tank to kill flukes but if you have corydoras catfish or discus then don't because they don't like the salt.
A company called Aqua Master do a product called Fluke & Tapeworm Tablets and it works well. It is Praziquantel (used for treating cats & dogs for tapeworm) and is used at 100mg of Praziquantel per 20litres of tank water. Do a partial water change a couple of days later and re-treat the tank a week later.

Try and avoid using medications containing Trichlorphon (Masoten, Dipterex) as it no longer works on most flukes or external parasites due to its miss-use over the years.

thanks, Colin -
I don't have cories, catfish or discus, but is the salt hard on the fish? How much salt per litre, and does it have to be introduced gradually?

thanks for your help!
Shelly

 

[Colin_T]

A salt bath can have any amount of salt in right up to seawater strength. However, I normally use about 2 heaped tablespoons of rock, sea, swimming pool, or aquarium salt per 20litres of tank water. You can add the salt all at once or over a 24 hour period. Then leave the salt levels high for a couple of weeks before doing daily 10% water changes for a couple of weeks to dilute it out. You can use more salt if you like but the higher doses might kill plants. If you do want to use a higher dose then add 1 heaped tablespoon per 20litres per day until the desired levels are reached.

 

[targa66]

A salt bath can have any amount of salt in right up to seawater strength. However, I normally use about 2 heaped tablespoons of rock, sea, swimming pool, or aquarium salt per 20litres of tank water. You can add the salt all at once or over a 24 hour period. Then leave the salt levels high for a couple of weeks before doing daily 10% water changes for a couple of weeks to dilute it out. You can use more salt if you like but the higher doses might kill plants. If you do want to use a higher dose then add 1 heaped tablespoon per 20litres per day until the desired levels are reached.

Thanks again, Colin - much appreciated. I didn't know that they could tolerate that much salt!
-Shelly

 

[rabbut]

They will tolerate more, I salt bath at about Colins dosage also. IME however, salt is useless against flukes as a bath, and the recomended treatment for them is 3 minuite dip in Sea Water strenght salt to eradicate the, repeated daily for 3-7 days. Though baths aren't too stressful, dips are, and should only be used as a last resort.

Do you have a microscope to hand?

Most UK meds won't work, and if the whole tank is showing signs, then salt dipping all the occupants will get very tiresome Those meds that work aren't effective against heavy infections... I'd advise you to do a skin scrape to properly diagnose flukes. If they are there, find your nearest vet's and ask for some Flubenol after taking in an infected specimin fish. Any Flubendazole based med will work well, but it is a restriceted substance in the UK, available only through vetinary pescription. If you import the med from the states, you may be breaching the law, so I would advise you not to go there The EU have basically taken off the shalf any useable med for flukes in the UK

All the best
Rabbut

 

[rhostog]

Flubendazole is available in the UK as Wormer Plus, by Kusuri, distributed in the UK by Plymouth Discus. It's marketed mainly at discus owners, but says it's suitable for all tropical fish. It is harmful to snails and other invertebrates. A 5g sachet treats 500 gallons and treats worms, flukes and other parasites.

According to the pack and its website (wormerplus.com), it complies with the latest regulations passed in Nov 2007 and is covered by COSHH regulations, and it seems to be legal and above-board; the website says 'new' so perhaps it's only recently become available?

 

[targa66]

Flubendazole is available in the UK as Wormer Plus, by Kusuri, distributed in the UK by Plymouth Discus. It's marketed mainly at discus owners, but says it's suitable for all tropical fish. It is harmful to snails and other invertebrates. A 5g sachet treats 500 gallons and treats worms, flukes and other parasites.

According to the pack and its website (wormerplus.com), it complies with the latest regulations passed in Nov 2007 and is covered by COSHH regulations, and it seems to be legal and above-board; the website says 'new' so perhaps it's only recently become available?

Thanks Rabbut & Rhostog -
I agree, salt dipping each one is virtually impossible.
I'll look into the Wormer Plus. I'm from the States, so if I have to, I can order the meds in the States and have it sent to a family member at home and then have them send it to me. (Why is it so impossible to get meds here???)
I'm guessing I'll have to treat all my tanks since I've switched fish between all three. Oddly, though - the deaths seem to be occurring in my biggest tank (although I do lose the occasional fry in a smaller tank).
-Shelly

 

[rabbut]

I'll look into the Wormer Plus. I'm from the States, so if I have to, I can order the meds in the States and have it sent to a family member at home and then have them send it to me. (Why is it so impossible to get meds here???)

Meds are hard to get here, because of the EU.... Another reason to pull out of it IMO

Wormer Plus IME is useless. I have used it three times for flukes now, and it did nothing on any occasion. I hope it worms better than it Flukes, as it realy isn't that good at the first Flubenol is the med of choise here if you can source it (via vets or states )

I'm guessing I'll have to treat all my tanks since I've switched fish between all three. Oddly, though - the deaths seem to be occurring in my biggest tank (although I do lose the occasional fry in a smaller tank).
-Shelly

Flukes are presant in most tanks, but fish develop an imunity to them. If no fish in the other tanks are showing any signs, they probibly don't need treating

Before using Flubenol, make sure you are 100% on the diagnosis, as it is a hard med that can do damage if not used correctly. Just to check, do you have a microscope available?

All the best, and sorry for the delayed reply; I've been at work all today
Rabbut

 

[rhostog]

I was a bit puzzled to read your post, rabbut, as the active ingredient of Flubenol is flubendazole, same as Wormer Plus, but I know you normally know what you're talking about, so I read up a bit and realised there's more to it than I'd thought.

I gather that this active compound has problems because it isn't soluble in water, especially hard alkaline water. There seems to be a Flubenol fomulation that administers a stronger and more effective dose of the active ingredient, Flubenol 15, compared to Flubenol 5 (and Wormer Plus). I guess this is the formulation you're talking about? However, I couldn't find this currently available in the UK (except through vets).

As for EU regulations - no, I'm not going there!

 

[rabbut]

Wormer plus have 50mg/g of Flubendazole in it, each gram treating 1,710 literes, bringing the flubendazole to a dose of 0.029mg/l. To treat for flukes, most meds use about 0.26mg/l, so wormer plus simply isn't strong enough for fluking... You can't up the dose with Wormer plus either, as it has other ingrediante to encurage fish to eat; Calcium carbonate, and adding too much of this will raise the pH, which isn't good if it happens fast...

I wasn't aware of there being more than one type of Flubendazole, or of one being hard to disolve. IME, wormer plus is hard to disolve, but I believe the stuff that isn't disolving is the calcium carbonate, rather than the Flubendazole that we are interested in

I would guess that to get the licence to trade this stuff in the EU, Kisuri had to down the dose and make it hard for the dose to be upped again I may be wrong there though.

IMO, you'd be best Targa66, getting Flubenol through a vet of the US I'm lucky, I have a friend whom can supply it now, though my source is ever so slightly dodgy

HTH
Rabbut

 

[targa66]

I would guess that to get the licence to trade this stuff in the EU, Kisuri had to down the dose and make it hard for the dose to be upped again I may be wrong there though.

IMO, you'd be best Targa66, getting Flubenol through a vet of the US I'm lucky, I have a friend whom can supply it now, though my source is ever so slightly dodgy

HTH
Rabbut
[/quote]

Thanks again. It is ridiculous, isn't it, that we've got to buy fish meds as if we're scoring dope or something?! When I tried to get levamisole for the camanallus, I even called a few vets' offices to try to get it legitimately but they didn't want to hear about my guppies! so I bought it overseas - and it worked perfectly.

Back to your prior post, Rabbut - I am not 100% certain it's flukes, and I hate throwing a bunch of meds in my tank that aren't necessary. Haven't had any deaths lately, but I'm afraid to put any new fish in there b/c I never sorted it out and there's still a few that are pale.

If I get a little microscope (I don't have one), do you do a skin scraping or something to see if it's flukes? or do you need to dissect a dead fish?

If it is flukes, do you think the flubenol is better than the praziquantel?

Sorry for the barrage of questions!

-Shelly

 

[rabbut]

Flubenol has worked for me with flukes, but I have never used Parziquantel for them and thus cannot have an experienced baced preferance for either .

Skin scraping is the only way to definately ID flukes as the issue. Disection is not nessisary. To scrape, what I usualy do is prepair a cotton ear bud by soaking it in a med based on either Methaline Blue or Malachite Grean (Interpet's Methaline Blue or Waterlife's Myxazin are two I have used before) and soaking a cloth in aquarium water. I also prepair a new slide for the microscope by cleaning with any alcohol based solution, to remove any dirt or dust on it.

At this point, I catch an affected fish, and place them onto the damp cloth. I then fold the cloth over to cover the eyes and reah potion of the fish, such that the area just behind the gills is showing. I then rub the prepaired ear-bud over the exposed area and then place the bud directly onto the slide. Next I lift the gill plate and check that they look normal, before returning the fish to the tank. After the fishes return, keep the lights out to help it recover from that ordeal

Once the swab has been done, you must transfer the material to the slide by wipeing the bud over it and then placing the specimin glass cover over the area. This can then be examined under the microscope. Flukes look like these in the following link;

[URL="http/images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...ficial&sa=G"]http/images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...ficial&sa=G[/URL]

See the section on flukes. They also have pictures of other things you might come across there

Have a look and see what you can see.

The meth blue or myxazin serve two porposes. They are die based, so they make parasites show up more clearly by staining them, and they are also both mild antiseptics. They ensure that the fish doesn't catch fungus in the area that was swabed, while the slime coat grows back; it's removed in the swabbing process

I should point out that I have only swabbed discus before, so working with guppies may be a bit tricky. Discus are larger fish and fairly easy to hold still, something I can't see a guppy doing....

HTH
Rabbut

EDIT to add, if you can find someone whom has done this before, and whom are prepaired to help, it will be safer for your fish, as you can harm them during certain parts of this precedure. Experience is the only thing that prevents mis-happs