Beginners Resource Section Suitable For Beginners?

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chrisbassist

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After reading this post: http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/307725-ph-effectiveness-on-autotrophic-bacteria/page__pid__2722221__st__0&#entry2722221 as a post made for beginners, I began thinking about a couple of things,

1. The sheer amount of information in the beginners resource section
2. The complexity of some of it.

just so you don't think i'm blowing it out of proportion or making mountains out of molehills or whatever expression you want to use...

1. the amount of info.

I copied and pasted all of the first posts of each topic linked to in the beginners resource into pages on my mac, I have done no formatting or anything. Also, I've left out the list of members willing to donate media, and I've also left out the post about where to find ammonia, since i couldn't be bothered to go through all of the posts.

Words: 40,659 could have been more but i left the ends off some articles, where it just said "cheers XXXX"
Pages: 160 A4

Am I alone in thinking this is too much to expect a beginner to read before getting their fish?


2. complexity

as an example, what is cycling?

answer given here: http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=175355

basic answer: cycling is the term used to describe growing the bacteria which will make our tanks safe for fish

1,674 words vs 18 words.


while I am in no way attacking the accuracy or quality of the articles which have been written, I find it obvious that they are written by people who know what they are doing, have a high level of understanding, and have probably forgotten what it is like to be new to the hobby and not understand what people are going on about.


When people sign up here, sometimes it's too late to advise a fishless cycle (like when I joined as an example) but when it isn't, people are directed to a section with over 40,000 words, to try and understand something they came here to understand. If you really think the info there is great, and is being used properly, all you need to do is hang around in the new tank section for a couple of days. the amount of questions on things which are already explained in the beginners resource tells me that people either find the section too intimidating, or that it's too hard to find. and when half of these people have already been directed there, with a direct link to the section, it can't be that.

I know people won't read all of it, and that some bits will wait, like hatching brine shrimp... or about different types of wood, but it's still there, adding to the amount of things presented to "newbs"


Now to end this post, I would LOVE to present you with an easy solution to what I believe to be a problem. but honestly? I don't have one, and suspect it doesn't exist. Maybe the easiest thing would be to break it up into a beginners resource section and an intermediates resource section. at least that way the beginners can focus on what matters to start with and get that done before worrying about the rest. I think the Ideal solution would be to keep those articles, under an intermediate section, and have more basic articles written which are stripped down to the bare minimum, and incredibly simple. with each article ending with a link to the more in depth article if people want to learn more.


Oh, and please don't take this as an attack, it's not meant as one, i just thought I would air my view on how to make the place more accessible for beginners.
 
to be fair i think the post made by Miss Wiggle is very informative and easy to read, she does go into cycling a little further than your 18 words, Chris (obviously). The beginners section has served well i think, from reading what i have read over the last 6 months.

as for the list of Media donations, i think it needs updating. I have pm'ed a mod to be added a month or so ago and not added yet, so someone may be missing out on a speedier cycle.
 
I too find it informative and easy to read, but obviously a lot of people find the posts intimidating otherwise we wouldn't get the amount of posts asking questions about it in the new tank section.

like i say, I have nothing wrong with explaining things fully, but like at school, it's better to get a grip with your basic science and maths first, THEN go on to study string theory. coz if you start with the string theory, then you may just be a little overwhelmed...
 
I do agree with a sub section in the new tank section for fishless cycling.
 
See, I thought maybe that section should have a sub-forum for the cycle logs, but when I thought about it, isn't that what that section is for anyway? for people with a new tank. once you've got the tank running, with fish etc, you've got the other freshwater section. so I don't know anymore whether it's worth doing.


but the problem I see with the resources, is not the articles themselves, which are extremely well written and very informative (I can't say this enough, they really are good) just that for people that have trouble grasping the concept, they just aren't simple enough. and you'd have to have an extremely long attention span to read through the whole lot.

they should obviously be kept easy to find, but I think maybe the best solution, would be to split it into 2 sections, a beginners resource area, and an intermediates resource area, presenting only the bare essentials in the beginners one, the things they NEED to know to get started.

The contents currently look like this: (and I've added noted to the end of each one)

Cycling

What's Cycling -> important for beginners to know
The Nitrogen Cycle -> less important to know for a complete beginner but still good reading, but it's also explained (with less detail) in other cycling topics
Fishless Cycling -> important for beginners to know
Fish-in Cycling -> very important since a lot of people arrive in this situation
Media Donation -> good to have, but not essential, maybe adding a link on the end of the cycling guides would be enough?
Where to find ammonia, UK and USA -> again, a link from the fishless cycling guide would be enough for the people that want help finding it
Avoiding and treating new tank syndrome -> this is basically another (more out of date) guide to the nitrogen cycle and cycling
Why Water Changes During Cycling Are Good -> very good article, but again, is it essential to have it's own part? it is mentioned to do water changes in the fish-in cycling section, and if people need more info on WHY, then the thread could be linked to

Setting Up a New Aquarium

Step by step guide to setting up an aquarium -> good one, maybe have as the first link in the resource area?
Step by step guide to weekly maintenance -> another good one, maybe after the cycling info?
Know your filter media -> less important
Sand as a substrate -> less important
Wood and it's types -> less important

Fish Selection

Fish Species Index -> does this need a link from the resource area? it's easier to find it without going through there...
A guide to stocking lists and fish compatibility -> again, useful, but not really as important as getting the tank set-up, and cycled, if left in that area, maybe the stocking stuff could go last?
Choosing your first fish -> as above, but maybe this could be the one left in the beginners resource section?
Suitable fish for a 10 gallon tank -> same as stocking lists...
Algae Eaters -> as above
Potential fish to avoid -> this could be left along with the first fish

General Advice

Aquarium Calculator and Convertors -> hmm, it does have a link on the main nav....
10 Rules for healthy fishkeeping -> important, but still not as important as the cycling...
Advice for the absolute beginner -> is this not just a disclaimer? it could be written into the resource section post instead of having a link which people may or may not read
Some newbie no-no's -> a couple of useful tips, but others which are not accurate. (number 6)
Feeding your fish - Resource Centre -> kinda obvious but probably useful to have
Moving or Upgrading an Existing Tank -> this would place the person as someone who has some experience with a tank, as such NOT a beginner

Advanced Advice -> this one just shows it by the name of the subsection.

Bacterial Blooms Explained
Hitchikers in Freshwater Tanks
Toxicity of Ammonia

so from that I would probably split into 2, a go like this:

beginners resource centre:
Disclaimer (actually written in this post rather than linked to)
Step by step guide to setting up an aquarium
What's Cycling?
Fishless Cycling
Fish-in Cycling
Choosing your first fish
Potential fish to avoid
Step by step guide to weekly maintenance

I would then set up another one, and link to the rest from that. I'd also add the link to that in the first one, saying for more information go here...

The goal wouldn't be to make things easier for us as regular users, but to make it easier for the complete newbie who comes on gets directed to that starts reading a couple, then realises how much there is, and stops before getting to the "how to do it" bits. then asks lots of questions... strip it down to make it less intimidating.

I know there will be plenty who disagree with me, but how many people can honestly say that if they were brand new to the forum they would read ALL of those articles before asking any questions?
 
i agree with you chris, when i first got into fishkeeping the information i sought out was short quick and to the point. i think thats what most beginners need. i think thats why you often see repeated questions over and over again on the forums because the basic info is to complex for someone looking for simple answers.
i am not saying dumb it down either i just think what chris said, to simpfy it for ppl who are lookign for quick answers. i beleive have the more complex answer though is also a valuable resource because as ppl get more into the hobby they will look into more details.

but one most ppl are looking into fish keeping they are looking for 2 three paragraphs tops, not mini novels
 
Glad someone agrees.

If the articles are intended for newbies, maybe we should do a poll for newbies to see how many people read through all of it, and how many of those understand everything.
 
I found some of the information to be a bit repetitive and only touching on things that should/could have gone in to more detail, and i only skim read the majority of it. Is there any way of getting a GOOD cycling logs mentioned, that people can actually look at? Its always nice to have something to look at to get an idea of what your trying to achieve.
Stocking lists and fish compatibility, you find people ask questions about this anyway in other parts of the forum because they need clarification on mixin fish and numbers etc.
I never read any of the 'general advice' or 'fish selection' section.
 
I really don't see why the articles need to be complicated, cycling itself is hardly rocket science and if people are faced with a wall of text then it's not suprising so many people end up just buying fish anyway. We seem to have turned something that is essentially 'bung in something to feed the bacteria until there's enough of them to support fish' into a massive palava, which it doesn't need to be.

Again, not that the articles are bad or completely unnessecary- there are plenty of people who do want to get as much information about what is actually going on as possible- but there's probably an equal number of people who, at least initially, just want a decorative tank and some pretty fish and preferably for them not to keel over after a couple of days.
 
I really don't see why the articles need to be complicated, cycling itself is hardly rocket science and if people are faced with a wall of text then it's not suprising so many people end up just buying fish anyway. We seem to have turned something that is essentially 'bung in something to feed the bacteria until there's enough of them to support fish' into a massive palava, which it doesn't need to be.

Again, not that the articles are bad or completely unnessecary- there are plenty of people who do want to get as much information about what is actually going on as possible- but there's probably an equal number of people who, at least initially, just want a decorative tank and some pretty fish and preferably for them not to keel over after a couple of days.

Agreement lies herewith. And to that end:

New tanks in 5 steps:

  1. Fish produce ammonia based waste which is toxic;
  2. The aim of the filter is to process the ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate which is not toxic to the fish except in huge quantities;
  3. With a new tank, get a test kit for ammonia and nitrite and some ammonia;
  4. Add the same amount of ammonia to the tank each day, if the ammonia and nitrite are zero after however long it should be, the tank is cycled;
  5. Buy fish!
 

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