Bba V Healthy Fish

[elmo666]

Hi everyone, happy new year.
I'll keep this short to sum up my thoughts on a subject that caused me so much grief and many posts in the summer. A new set up in April subsequently became plagued by bba, however my discus who moved tank all seemed happy enough in their new home. So soft lad here set about treatments, adjusting flow, adding liquid carbon, adjusting lighting times, co2 times, more ferts, less ferts etc. Finally got on top of it when a friend suggested changing the standard tubes that came with the unit to better quality plant specific tubes. I hadn't considered this but hey presto, problem solved. Sadly, shortly after this, well, seemed that way, the discus became unwell, and though symptoms were slight, pointed to a few possible causes, so set about sorting that. Took an age, but got there. Two pairs of discus now spawning regularly, tank looking great up until Christmas time......bba rearing its ugly head again, mainly around fringes of leaves. So, was the constant messing with water parameters, ferts, light, co2 (ph I guess fluctuating more than I may have realised) the eventual cause of ailing fish? Hence the question. Now the fish are so happy should I tolerate some bba in my fully planted tank, I enjoy the plants as much as the fish, or do I set about tackling it again. To me its a dilemma. Incidentally, been quite ill fir a month and hadn't noticed co2 had run out.

 

[Akasha72]

Hi elmo, I've not posted on this forum for a very long time but I've just read your post and I think I might be able to help you. I too had severe bba in all the tanks I've run over the years. Most recently my Rio 24o became so over run with it that I almost packed up fish keeping altogether. Like you, I tried all I could think of and none of it worked. The main problem with this type of algae is it emits spores so a little bit can turn in a lot in a short space of time. 
 
So with my tank ... it was so severe it was reducing me to tears. I'd tried the Co2 route and increasing flow, increasing water changes, stripping the tank and cleaning all the bba off the decor and throwing away the plants but none of it worked. It was one day when I was in a lfs and having a moan to a staff member about it that I was given a light bulb moment. He asked me if I'd checked my phosphate level in the tank. I said no I hadn't but could that be a cause of this algae? He said in his view it could be and to check the level and let him know. So I got it checked and lo and behold - the level was off the scale ... the test went nearly black and the safe level is a pale blue. Next I got myself my own test kit and I tested my tap water - this was also seriously high although not as high as the tank.
 
The next step then was to start reducing the phosphate to a safer level. Like you've mentioned my fish were sickly too. They seemed to susseptable to any bug going and I'd been trying to get them well for months. Once I started running a phosphate reducer in my filter the fish started to pick up. Of course, for me, the only way to remove it totally is to change onto RO water but for me this doesn't work as I live in a first floor flat!
I've reduced my water changes though, heavily planted the tank to keep Nitrates down and I check my phosphate level about once a month and change out the remover once I see an increase. I've using JBL's phosphate remover and their test kit too and I've found that to be the best one of the different brands
 
Regarding the bba - well I noticed once the phosphate started coming down it seemed to stop increasing but I decided in order to get rid of it all that I had I'd have to find something that would eat it. Through research I discovered that the Siamese Algae Eater loves bba. The problem with the SAE is it is very similar to the flying fox (which won't eat bba) and the false siamensis fish (which also won't eat bba) I did a lot of research into telling the subtle differences and managed to get three true SAE's - they ate all the bba in about 4 weeks and now my tank is bba free. Of course now I have another problem - the SAE gets very big and so I now have 3 monster fish fighting over food!
 
Hopefully there's some info there that might help you

 

[elmo666]

That's a very insightful reply, thanks, and also uncanny. I've got another thread going, lowering ph, which also mentions my bba woes........but it's centred around me using PHOSPHORIC acid of late, finding, as you did, extremely high phosphate levels and asking if they were linked.
As I said, uncanny, but very much appreciate your reply. I'm just about to start a thread regarding my discus and the water they're kept in. Currently its pure r/o corrected with discus pro mineral. However, this proves somewhat costly and I have to dose ferts to try and replenish trace minerals. I stay clear of the Estimated Index approach, as, to be honest, 75lts a week (25%) is as much of a change I can do due to draw off and heating up times for the three buckets. I'm now considering using my HMA filter and acclimatising the fish to the higher ph of this, without adjusting it down with acid, as I do now. This should also have the added benefit of leaving behind some of the minerals the plants and fish require. I'm assuming without changing anything else, lighting, temp, co2, all I'll see is a rise in ph, a small I expect, as its currently 6.4ish, tap water is 7.1 but know the tanks natural biological process produces acids that will lower that.

 

[Akasha72]

I saw your other thread after reading this one and then realised that you were adding some phosphate. If your level is already high then adding more could be the reason for the bba - to be honest it's just a theory for me at the moment. I've read many conflicting view about phosphate levels and algae. I can only pass on my own experiences. I would, of course, be really interested to know of any other fish keepers who have found a connection between phosphates and bba. Bba is an absolute scurge and it would be good if we can find out the cause so we can eliminate it easily. 
 
Good luck with it and let me know how you get on. Even if I don't reply, I am reading

 

[Byron]

Black brush (beard) algae, like most any green or red algae (BBA strictly speaking is a red algae), will take advantage of a light/nutrient imbalance.  If nutrients are present, as obviously they are in any aquarium with fish, and in the presence of light, algae will appear.  There is no way to prevent this in a healthy aquarium.  However, live plants can out-compete the algae provided the light/nutrients are in balance for the needs of the plants, and it is thus possible to keep this and any algae in control.
 
One will read that low water flow, high water flow, lack of CO2, high nitrates, high phosphates...etc, etc are the cause of BBA.  This is partially true, though not strictly so.  The only reason any of these individual issues causes BBA is because the overall light/nutrient balance is off.  Restore the balance, and end of algae problems.
 
Certain algae species will appear in individual tanks and not in others, all else being equal.  I have never found the reason for this, but that really doesn't matter as any algae increase in a planted tank is a nuisance at best and a disaster at worst, so finding the balance and maintaining it is the only solution.
 
In this thread, we have instances of very high phosphates, and while one might conclude that the high phosphates caused the algae, that is only true in the sense that the high phosphates caused an imbalance between light and nutrients and algae took advantage.
 
I have brought BBA under control several times in my 25 years of fishkeeping/planted tanks by either decreasing the light intensity and/or duration, or increasing or decreasing nutrient supplementation (fertilizers).  Each of my seven tanks is a bit different.  Again, it is finding the balance and maintaining it that leads to success.  Tubes/bulbs that "wear out" will lose considerable intensity (and sometimes wavelengths too) and this can disrupt the balance; additional and brighter daylight entering through windows in summer can upset the balance.  And not having all 17 requited nutrients for plants in balance and none in excess obviously upsets the balance.  Algae is always waiting in the wings for these opportunities.
 
I do not recommend acquiring specific fish because they have their own requirements and issues, as Akasha72 has noted.  Similarly, adding chemicals, be it so-called algaecides or liquid carbon, is not safe as these products do affect fish.  And sensitive fish like discus will undoubtedly have difficulty.  These sorts of fixes are band-aids that do not address the cause, and that is what must be done.
 
Hope this is of some help.
 
Byron.

 

[elmo666]

Thanks for the insight and advice guys. Do you think gradually moving away from the corrected r/o to water filtered through an HMA filter will have a positive or negative impact overall? I'm aware of a daily ph swing due to the co2, between 6.2 and 6.5. I adjust my r/o to match this using acid. My tap water comes out at 7.2, so a gradual increase in both ph and tds would take place. However, water quality may improve as I'd be able to do a 75ltr change mid week as well as the HMA filtered water only takes 20-30 minutes to draw off as opposed to 4hrs for the r/o

 

[Byron]

Thanks for the insight and advice guys. Do you think gradually moving away from the corrected r/o to water filtered through an HMA filter will have a positive or negative impact overall? I'm aware of a daily ph swing due to the co2, between 6.2 and 6.5. I adjust my r/o to match this using acid. My tap water comes out at 7.2, so a gradual increase in both ph and tds would take place. However, water quality may improve as I'd be able to do a 75ltr change mid week as well as the HMA filtered water only takes 20-30 minutes to draw off as opposed to 4hrs for the r/o

 
This is now getting into the more specific area of water stability for discus.  The diurnal pH fluctuation is not harmful; this occurs naturally in many habitats.  Spread out over 24 hours it is not an issue for fish.
 
Before commenting further, I would like toknow your tap water parameters, GH, KH and pH.  I realize the pH is 7.2 but the GH is more significant for fish, and the KH will tell us if the pH is likely to lower or not, naturally.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

I know nothing about discus and so I can't help here. 
 
One thing I will mention is that my tap water Ph is around 7.4 - 7.6 but it plummets to around 6 in my tank. It took me a long time to figure out why this was and I took to experimenting with three glasses of water (dechlorinated) to find out. The first glass contained just water, the second was water plus a handful of gravel (washed under the tap first) from my 2nd tank where the Ph didn't plummet much at all (settled at Ph7 and stayed there) and the third glass was water and a handful of the sand from the tank where it drops significantly. 
On day 3 of the experiment the Ph in glass 2 and 3 was starting to fall. Glass 2 fell to 7 and stopped (glass 1 never shifted from the tap Ph) but after about 5 days the glass containing the sand was showing real signs of serious Ph drop. I abandoned the experiment after 6 days as I'd proved that the sand was responsible for the Ph fall. My sand is Unipac aquarium sand but I've also seen playsand do this.
 
I've no idea if that info helps but I'm happy to pass it on in case it does  

 

[elmo666]

Thanks. Just got a bit of a surprise to be honest. Although I've spoken here about using tap water passed through my HMA filter, I haven't checked the parameters for a good while. I have mixed some with my r/o from time to time, but simply adjusted the ph of the combined water in my 25 ltr buckets.
so, tap water is
Ph 7.8
GH 40mg/ltr (ppm)
Kh 20mg/ltr
Cheers

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Two quick comments. SAE do not love BBA, but they will eat when hungry. My advice is to to stop feeding a tank to get the SAEs to turn to BBA with gusto,
 
Next, mg/l is about equal to ppm. 17.8 ppm - 1 degree for GH and KH. KH is what holds pH stead and yours is pretty low.
 
But you might want to watch these two videos featuring Discus Hans, a discus legend in the USA (originally from Holland). The first vid shows you his facilitiy and the second discusses how to keep discus including dispelling a lot of the urban myths about what this fish needs.
 
DISCUS HANS INTERVIEW PART 1 Fish house tour, introduce Hans.

 
DISCUS HANS INTERVIEW PART 2 ARE DISCUS HARD TO KEEP?
http/tps/www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OekMHBGE6Y

 

[Akasha72]

I have to disagree about the SAE's TwoTankAdmin. I added one to begin with as a tiny baby - it was difficult to tell it apart from my oto's at the time it was that small - within an hour of being in my tank it was sat on my filter pipe eating the bba meanwhile all my other fish were tucking into their normal flake/pellets etc. Once I knew I'd identified the SAE correctly I went and bought a further 2 from the same lfs and the same happened with those two - they latched on to anything that was covered in bba and devoured it.
To begin with I had bba everywhere - even growing on the glass. My large piece of bogwood wasn't the usual reddy-brown it was black with hairy algae all over. The SAE's tackled that the last, they turned to the plants first and the filter pipes. Once they'd eaten all of that then they went to the wood. All the while I was feeding my tank normally twice a day but they were more interested in the bba. Now there is no bba to eat they will fight with my cories for their pellets.
 
I have a video of the SAE's eating the bba is anyone wants me to share it I'm happy to

 

[Byron]

I know nothing about discus and so I can't help here. 
 
One thing I will mention is that my tap water Ph is around 7.4 - 7.6 but it plummets to around 6 in my tank. It took me a long time to figure out why this was and I took to experimenting with three glasses of water (dechlorinated) to find out. The first glass contained just water, the second was water plus a handful of gravel (washed under the tap first) from my 2nd tank where the Ph didn't plummet much at all (settled at Ph7 and stayed there) and the third glass was water and a handful of the sand from the tank where it drops significantly. 
On day 3 of the experiment the Ph in glass 2 and 3 was starting to fall. Glass 2 fell to 7 and stopped (glass 1 never shifted from the tap Ph) but after about 5 days the glass containing the sand was showing real signs of serious Ph drop. I abandoned the experiment after 6 days as I'd proved that the sand was responsible for the Ph fall. My sand is Unipac aquarium sand but I've also seen playsand do this.
 
I've no idea if that info helps but I'm happy to pass it on in case it does

 
It is more likely the organics in the substrates than the substrates themselves, as I will explain.
 
First, I asked for the GH and KH because pH is tied to these.  The GH adds mineral salts and the KH is the carbonate "buffering" that affects pH.  The higher the KH the less the pH will shift over time.
 
I don't know about Unipac [I checked their website but they do not indicate if any bacteria or similar is added to their sand, so I would doubt it] but playsand is inert [I have it in six of seven tanks].  But organics live in the substrate, and there are organics even in tap water.  The lowering of the pH is due to the increase in CO2 caused by the decomposition of organics.  This occurs in all aquaria, though the pH itself may not shift much if at all if the KH is sufficient to counter this.
 
My tap water pH is around 7 to 7.2, but the GH and KH are near-zero [around 7 ppm which is less than half of one degree].  So in my aquaria, the pH easily lowers to 5 in tanks where I do nothing to buffer this.  Many wild caught soft water fish thrive in such water, so it poses no issues.  The biological stability of the tank prevents the pH rising more than a couple of decimal points with a 50% water change.  But if I started messing around with it, causing fluctuating pH, this would seriously affect the fish.  This is why one has to understand the tap water parameters to start with, and then proceed accordingly depending upon the intended fish.
 
Byron.

 

[elmo666]

Thanks again guys. I understand the link between kh and a tanks capacity to remain stable when either the organic breakdown of waste, and/or co2 produce additional acidity thus lowering the ph. I have used bicarb in the past to raise both ph and kh when I've had a small crash. I strongly suspect the outbreak of bba is definitely linked to me beginning to use phosphoric acid to adjust the ph of my r/o, after remineralising it, to match that of my tank. I similarly suspect I may have let the ph go a little low for many of my plants. because of my feeding regime, I do have nitrates above that which I am comfortable with. Because of this I opted to stop using a complete fert (TMC) and began dosing only trace elements. I think all these separate factors have lead as a whole to the bba outbreak, i.e. I've created an inbalance. I must say tho that the discus are still spawning regularly, are healthy with great appetites and the other tank mates are thriving as are they.
I'm considering using less r/o and moving towards a higher ph in a bid to gain stability and speed up water prep times which in turn will me more changes.
Also, after speaking to the suppliers of the discus, all said they are keeping them in well filtered tap water.......no mention of r/o or lowering ph.

 

[Akasha72]

firstly let me answer Byron - it sounds like your water is similar to mine. It's very soft and acidic where I am, my GH and KH are virtually non-existant (I think the last KH test came out at 2) and yes, I had allowed for organics with my experiment but rinsing the substrate well before I began the test. It's impossible to know 100% why my Ph is one tank with gravel - treated in exactly the same manor as the one with the sand - manages to maintain a higher Ph than the other tank as all water compositions are different by area and there are many factors that come into play. 
I decided a long time ago to just keep fish that thrive in the water that I give them from my tap. It takes the pressure away. My SA cichlids and tetra's like my soft acidic water and so I just change some water every week and don't do much more. I use Easylife Profito and Easy-carbo to fertilize my plants and it's working well - my plants are lush and healthy and I'm getting new leaves of my anubias plants every 2-3 weeks. I try to fertilize daily (I divide the amount needed of the profito by 7 and add it in small amounts instead of weekly) although sometimes I do forget!
 
I wish I knew more about keeping Discus Elmo so I can be more helpful but they're not a fish I've kept - although I did consider them before deciding on Angelfish instead. From what I've learned from speaking to other Discus keepers when I was trying to make my decision whether to try keeping them or not - they're not as demanding now as was once thought. Most Discus are tank bred and from what I understood they are no harder to keep than Angelfish. 
 
Regarding keeping the Ph more stable have you considered putting some crushed coral in the filter? After discovering that my GH and KH were so low it was route I went down. I've not tested my GH or KH recently but my Ph is still reading at 6 so it's doubtful whether the coral has done anything - perhaps I've not added enough but I will always look to a natural solution to a problem rather than go down the chemical route. 

 

[elmo666]

Ok, Akasha, I think my thread may have mislead you and the others slightly, though all the associated feedback and advice has been very good. On an aside, I have a thriving shoal of Otto's and despite the low ph a good healthy group of shrimp, I can regularly see their shedded shells, remarkable how life like they are lol. So that's my clean up crew, the Cory's look great too. I did go down the route of SAE, unfortunately turned out to be juvenile flying fox. When I decided to remove them, realising the nightmare task ahead, I also decided to remove black phantom tetra, and other fish I'd outgrown. 4hrs later and one trashed tank the fish in question had been successfully removed, around 20 in total. They were later replaced by a shoal of 40 cardinals in an effort to give the tank a large focal point and instill confidence in any nervous discus in moving into open water more freely.
So, back to my water. Although I've had the occasional noticeable larger swing in ph, it is pretty stable between 6.2 and 6.5 over the photo period. However, adding minerals to correct r/o and then subsequently acid to lower and match the ph isn't an exact science and as such I'm pretty sure despite my best efforts I'm adding water with fluctuating properties.
So, with all these questions bouncing around in my head, I want to simplify the process, use water that naturally carries much of the beneficial minerals and by doing so, switching from r/o to hma filtered tap water, I'll speed up and simplify water prep which in turn will mean more changes getting done, further lowering nitrate and as such improvement in water quality. So, that's the "stability" I'm looking for. My worry is that in moving away from the r/o I've been using for a long time, the change, increase in ph etc may adversely affect my fish.
All that said I just did a change using 75ltr of hma filtered water, nothing added, and within the hour the breeding pair of discus had laid a fresh spawn.