Are water changes the only way for safe healing of fish with disease?

[Tttay89]

I have had 2 fish deaths in 1 week. Which I have just assumed must be an internal bacteria problem as its rare for me to get a dead fish
Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, Nitrate 25-30 (tap water is 20ppm), pH 7.3, hardness 10dgh. Temp 25c
Tank running for nearly 2 years
I lost a guppy last week with symptoms of having spells of random quick outbursts, swimming strangely and then eventually swimming upright and death.
And today a gourami is on its way out, symptoms are worn away fins and floating and resting on ornaments.
Nobody picked on or bullied the 2 fish they always swam happily and ate on their own and seemed relatively happy. Do internal bacterial infections come from stress?
I havnt got 2 tanks to quarantine this (dieing) gourami so I have put it in a separate isolation box as it started to become a target for my other gourami, they never used to fight untill this sign of weekness appeared...

Anyway, main question, assuming this is bacteria problems is water changing really the only way to cure this without using chemicals? Water changes especially large ones seem like they will just finish the fish off,
I have 'Anti internal bacteria' by interpret, if anyone has any reviews on this? Likely to harm my other fish?

 

[Byron]

I will not guess as to the actual problem (disease, genetics, water issues, etc) as my experience (fortunately) with these is very minimal. Other experienced members will I am sure be along. But I can comment on the water change and stress aspects.

Stress is the direct cause of 95% of all fish disease issues. The pathogen or whatever obviously has to be present, but in 95% of the cases it is stress that weakens the fish's immune system such that it cannot deal with the issue and it succumbs.

Water changes do reduce stress. It is really very simple...clean water helps the fish maintain better health. Adding any chemical substance, medication, etc always adds stress to the fish, so this is at cross purposes. If the additive is the safest and most effective for the specific issue, then it should benefit, unless the fish is too far gone or under sufficient stress that it cannot fight back. This is why we recommend a major water change at the first sign of almost any obvious problem; provided the parameters (GH, pH and temperature) are reasonably the same between tank water and source water, this will always help. It is like a good nights sleep to humans fighting off colds and such.

Guppies are not robust fish. Due to the generations of inbreeding, they have become seriously weakened in their genetics. Gourami are not especially robust fish either, though for different reasons (sometimes).

 

[Colin_T]

Do you have any pictures and video of the fish acting strangly?
You can post pics of all the remaining fish and we can check them for disease.

--------------------​

Internal bacterial infections are caused by bacteria damaging the intestines or internal organs. The fish normally bloat/ swell up overnight and die within 24-48 hours of bloating. The scales sometimes stick out but not always. Fish will usually do a stringy white poop and stop eating when they bloat up. They sit under the surface or near a filter outlet trying to get oxygen.

--------------------
If fish start dashing about the tank and spiralling through the water and dieing shortly after that, it's normally caused by a protozoan, virus or bacterial infection in the brain (protozoan is the most common, then virus).

Protozoan infections are common in tanks that don't get regular water changes and gravel cleaning, or haven't had the filter cleaned for a long time.

Cleaning the tank and adding Salt will usually cure a lot of minor protozoan infections.

--------------------
The main reason you do big daily water changes and gravel clean the substrate on tanks with sick fish, is to dilute the harmful pathogens in the water and give the fish a chance to fight off the disease with their own immune system. If that doesn't work then you need to try salt or chemical medications.​

 

[JuiceBox52]

Water changes definitely do help. Try a 75% change daily and see if it helps

 

[AbbeysDad]

I suspect water quality and am suspicious about the test ressults with source water so high in nitrates.
How often and how much do you do for routine partial water changes. Do you have gravel and routinely gravel vac? Filter maintenance?
I think with 20ppm nitrates in your source water, you would need to do 50% (or more) water changes 2x weekly. Once weekly with a lightly stocked, heavily planted tank.

 

[Tttay89]

So definite water changes and definitly not that bottle of medicine.
I just always found when it comes to water changes to be rather stressful for the my fish to the point they all seem to lose colour whilst I do it and move decor etc. Especially for a fish thats on deaths door and unable to swim.

Yeah I assume my guppy died from lonelyness stress, as it has been on its own for about a year, I've only ever lost a few guppies. The gourami on the other hand, Lord knows.. Used to thrive in a group of 4 and no bullying or signs of stress ever showed untill a few weeks ago. The only thing I can think which would probbaly stress him was (which I'm still trying to rehome with no luck) is my tropheus duboisi. I was sold this not knowing any info and before I joined the forum, also not knowing how the diet and water requirements are so much different. He hasn't ever acknowledged the gourami to be honest it's still a juvenile with white spots and hasn't taken a nip at nobody. I do however want to get him rehomed before It gets too sick or starts getting large and attacking.

Sorry I should have mentioned I do use 50% source and 50% RO
My source water has a hardness of 20dgh
Nitrate is definitly around 20ppm and is still around 20ppm when I come to do water changes. I usually take around 40-50% of the water out every Sunday and deep gravel vac....
I would use source water only so that the tropheus can thrive more but I don't want to harm all my softer water species instead.
The filter I only do this every 4 weeks ago with fears I clean too much bacteria. Usually just a few squeezes of the media and pick off thick gunk. I plan to get more plants. All I've got is a pile of moss balls catapah leaves and drift wood

 

[Byron]

I just always found when it comes to water changes to be rather stressful for the my fish to the point they all seem to lose colour whilst I do it and move decor etc. Especially for a fish thats on deaths door and unable to swim.

Most fish will not appreciate us bashing around in their environment, but one has to consider the immense benefit. And fish do get used to this. I remember a group of hatchetfish I had back in the 1990's that would cluster around my arm when it was in the tank trimming plants or vacuuming the substrate, and I could feel them picking at the hairs on my arm. I have often had fish swim into the Python (I keep my right hand on the "throttle" so I can immediately stop the water flow and not suck them down the tube and into the drain). As for fish dealing with stress from other things, it is easy enough to simply place the W/C hose in one front corner of the tank and siphon out half the water, then refill without moving anywhere else in the tank. In the final analysis, it must be remembered that every W/C is beneficial in ways we cannot even begin to match.

The filter I only do this every 4 weeks ago with fears I clean too much bacteria. Usually just a few squeezes of the media and pick off thick gunk.

All bacteria attach to surfaces as part of the biofilm which covers any surface submersed. It is not easy to remove them, and squeezing sponges under the tap will not do so. There are in any event far more bacteria--and some of them are different species that are also essential--in the substrate than in the filter.

 

[JuiceBox52]

Is there a way to do water changes without moving all of the decor? I find that I only have to move the decor every month to get under it with the siphon but just go around it for regular changes

 

[Tttay89]

Yeah I do try not to move much its mainly the caves and ornaments where fish can sit in I try to move about,
So the gourami did in fact die this morning, would I need to buy more gouramis to keep them happy? Or do they prefer being on their own? I now have two dwarfs and one moonlight

 

[Byron]

Is there a way to do water changes without moving all of the decor? I find that I only have to move the decor every month to get under it with the siphon but just go around it for regular changes

Yeah I do try not to move much its mainly the caves and ornaments where fish can sit in I try to move about,

I never move decor once the tank is established. Water changes are primarily just that--water being siphoned out and replaced with fresh. If you have open areas of substrate, which normally would be in the front, the substrate can be vacuumed with the water change. Depending upon the tank (fish species and numbers, plants) this may or may not be necessary. But I would not shift chunks of wood, rock, etc. Areas under these usually become anaerobic, and this is good; the substrate is the main bed for bacteria, both aerobic and anaerobic, and both provide a healthy biological system.

There are ways to "clean" such areas naturally. Roots of plants that are rooted in the substrate will often extend under these items. And Malaysian Livebearing Snails are ideal because they live primarily in the substrate.

 

[Byron]

So the gourami did in fact die this morning, would I need to buy more gouramis to keep them happy? Or do they prefer being on their own? I now have two dwarfs and one moonlight

First, given the recent deaths from as yet unidentified causes, it is wise not to consider any new fish for a time.

Second, the gender of the gourami is important. Males are territorial, and depending what gender the two dwarfs and one moonlight are, you could be adding real trouble.

Also, Moonlight Gourami (species is Trichopodus microlepis) get large, six inches (15 cm). I do not see the tank size mentioned in this thread. Gourami species generally should not be combined. If the three now present get along, it is best to avoid rocking the boat by adding any more.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Getting back to the title of this thread, I consider water changes to be the best 'medicine' to PROMOTE health and PREVENT illness and disease. A fish tank, regardless of size, is so much more confined than a pond with thousands of gallons or a stream/river of countless miles! Our fish are trapped and forced to live in an ever increasing polluted environment. An environment often made worse by overfeeding, and neglect.

Plants, especially fast growing plants that convert nutrients (aka pollution) into plant tissue eventually removed by trimming can help. However, the biggest and best solution is routine, periodic, partial fresh water changes of the appropriate volume to reduce pollution and resupply much needed minerals. In addition, we need good filter maintenance and gravel vacuuming (as required) to remove nitrogenous waste. Failure to properly maintain the aquarium system sentences any confined fish to a harsh, usually short life span.

So clean(er) water may or may not cure disease, but it's a sure bet it can prevent many if not most/all.

 

[Tttay89]

I usually do around 40 percent a week maybe a touch less, I'm about to do 50% now and again tommorow.

With regards to temperature and water changes when I do them it usually does drop a few degrees, I always thought using warm tap water would contain more stuff I don't want, unless I can be informed conditioner removes all of it. Usually my (50 percent of change) RO Water is stored in the boiler cupboard so it's not too much of a change.

 

[AbbeysDad]

I always thought using warm tap water would contain more stuff I don't want, unless I can be informed conditioner removes all of it.

Many hobbyists believe that water from a hot water tank "contains stuff they don't want". It's a myth. Hot water is simply your cold water that's been heated! Sure, if you have really hard water, there may be settled deposits in the tank, but what comes out the tap, except being warmer, is not much different than your cold water...as Ripley would say 'believe it or not.'

 

[Tttay89]

To be honest I never really even heard it untill I saw a thread on here I always just assumed and I don't know why , my tap water is around 20dgh