Another Question

DJ ArKaDaRkA

Fishaholic
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
567
Reaction score
1
Location
behind the decks/infront of the speakers
ive had my tank running 5 days now without fish and just 1 live plant ive added declor to the water about an hour ago

ive only got a nitrAte test until my master tesk kit gets delivered its a interpet tablet into water one

im getting a reading of 25mg/l is this normal?

im going to do a fish in cycle adding my first fish saturday

should i be doing water changes now to bring this down as if there is nitrAte surley there must be ammonia and nitrite in there too?

:blink:
 
Hi,

A nitrate reading of 25mg/l is perfectly acceptable, and no water changes are required at that level. If you test the water coming from your tap, you'll likely find that it also has 25mg/l of nitrate.

The presence of nitrate doesn't by any means indicate that there is ammonia or nitrite. The process which converts these chemicals into each other is called the Nitrogen Cycle and is the most important thing a fishkeeper can learn about.

You should try to read up on the Nitrogen Cycle as much as you can, as understanding it is vital to keeping your fish alive and healthy.

Here is a brief overview meantime:-

Basically, fish produce ammonia through respiration and doing the toilet. Ammonia is also produced by rotting fish food, dead fish and dead plants. Ammonia is deadly for fish and must be removed. This is done by bacteria (Nitrosomonas) which you must colonise in your filter. These bacteria turn ammonia into nitrite.

Nitrite is also very bad for fish, and also must be removed. This is done by a second colony of bacteria (Nitrospira) in your filter. They convert the nitrite into nitrate (note that those names are very similar, but they are very different).

Nitrate is relatively safe unless in large quantities. We stop nitrate from building up by performing water changes. Live plants also feed on nitrate but not to any great extent unless you have lots of plants.

Ammonia is also used by live plants, but again not to any real extent unless the tank is heavily planted.

Here is a diagram to help you understand.

Nitrogen_Cycle_Diagram.jpg


You should start your reading with the link in my signature below called 'Cycling with Fish', which should give you a good grounding.

When doing a fish-in cycle, the fish are effectively put into a tank which doesn't have the required bacteria, and often die of ammonia or nitrite poisoning whilst the fishkeeper waits for the bacteria colonies to develop. Some people won't cycle a tank with fish and others prefer it, but the fact is that even with regular water changes, the fish will still be exposed to low levels of these toxic substances, and it has been proven that even low-level exposure to ammonia can cause long-term health problems. It doesn't have to kill the fish to be bad for them.

Can't I persuade you to try fishless cycling? Fishless cycling laces the filter with the required bacteria before fish are added, eliminating the chance that the fish will be poisoned.

Cheers :good:

BTT
 
Hi there DJ and welcome to TFF!

You've lucked into having a great introduction to the Nitrogen Cycle by one of the masters up there, BTT! Knowing about that cycle and all its ins and outs is key to becoming a good aquarist these days and it takes a while. Doing an "interactive fishless cycle" with the members here working with you is a great way to absorb this new information, learn it thoroughly and be working on other new problems, like understanding filters and learning the skills of good stocking.

If I recall from your other thread, you are setting up a 70L/18G and were disappointed to find its really considered too small for most kinds of sharks. I'm sure that was not fun and means you may have to take some time to work out some stocking that will work with the equipment you have and that you will like. The period of the fishless cycle is perfect timing for that process usually.

Also, its hard not to overstate the tedious nature of moving water every day. Thirty-five liters may not seem like much once or twice, but a whole month or two of either lugging it from the sink or setting up your hoses is going to get old very fast. There's much, much less of that with a fishless cycle.

As BTT says, even though we can sometimes keep the water changes going steadily and save the lives of the fishes, the permanent damage they are receiving is often not visible. Evolution has build the fishes physiology to operate correctly in the vast quantities of fresh water found in an outdoor stream or other freshwater body. Our aquariums are tiny by comparison, even the ones with hundreds of gallons. Fish gills, during the respiration process, give off both CO2 and ammonia but the gill structure assumes that ammonia will be washed away immediately and is not capable of operating properly when it is surrounded by even higher levels of ammonia than what it gives off itself. What happens in that case is permanent gill damage and the result is that the fish frequently lives a lower quality and shorter life as a result. This problem begins at the test level our liquid kits resolve as being about 0.25ppm of ammonia, a quite low level.

The other poison, nitrite(NO2), acts in a very different way. It damages the delicate protein structure of hemoglobin, the main carrier of oxygen in fish blood. The NO2 can attach to the deoxyhemoglobin (the deoxygenated blood returning in venous blood) the same way O2 (oxygen) can, but when it does, it reacts and turns the hemoglobin into a formless brown mess, rendering it disfunctional from that point on, even after the NO2 might be long gone. An NO2 level of 0.25ppm, a problem amount the same as ammonia above, is enough to cause plenty of this hemoglobin damage.

Timewise, it takes the Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira bacteria a month or two to build up the working structure of their biofilm structures (contrary to what one might think, these biofilm structures contain micro-channels for moving water and an organization of different materials and other bacterial species. Only after the bacteria have had time to build it up properly will your biofilter function with enough throughput to do the job. Until then, you are the manual toilet flusher, so to speak! :lol:

My own fishless cycle took a long time, but when I look back on it now it seems like nothing and the skill I gained has been invaluable! Hope this will help you change your mind, but regardless, keep us informed of how its going and the members here will enjoy chatting and helping.

~~waterdrop~~
 
i will most definaly be doing a fishless cycle with my second tank but me and the young ones have been looking forward to putting them in this weekend because as you probally can well belive the lfs never even mentioned the nitrogen cycle they just told us we could put them in in 7 days so the boys have been really exited and if you have kids yourself? you will know the hassle and tears i will be getting if i tell them it could be a month until we can put anything in it

im sorry if doing a fish in cycle offends anyone here as i really appreciate all the help ive had here so far and dont want to make any enimies on this helpful forum :good:
 
i have numerous young kids myself and had to do the fish in cycle with the tank in their bedroom. if you do wish to do a fish in cycle, please dont buy those fish until you have your test kit! go for a hardy fish (am sure someone will be along shortly with a list) dont go for neon/cardinal tetras or guppys, they really dont fair well in a fish in cycle.
i personally used platys but im guessing if your getting yours from a lfs they may not fair so well either.
dont buy too many. just a couple to start the process off with!

is there no one you know with a fish tank already up and running that you could have some mature filter media off? this would really help! or could you ask your lfs if they have any going spare from one of their tanks?
 
i have numerous young kids myself and had to do the fish in cycle with the tank in their bedroom. if you do wish to do a fish in cycle, please dont buy those fish until you have your test kit! go for a hardy fish (am sure someone will be along shortly with a list) dont go for neon/cardinal tetras or guppys, they really dont fair well in a fish in cycle.
i personally used platys but im guessing if your getting yours from a lfs they may not fair so well either.
dont buy too many. just a couple to start the process off with!

is there no one you know with a fish tank already up and running that you could have some mature filter media off? this would really help! or could you ask your lfs if they have any going spare from one of their tanks?


thanks for the info

yeah even 1 fish would keep them happy until its cycled its something for them to look at.

im going to ask a fish store im going to tomorrow for some mature media to help the process along

my local one does not seem to have much knowlage or if they do they dont seem to have very good people skills hopfully the one im going to tomorrow will be more helpful
 
see the thing is you have to balance the dissapointment of your kids not getting the fish they want now to the dissapointment of they're new pets getting ill or dying.

being a parent is not a popularity comtest, sometimes you have to do things that may upset your kids but be better in the long run.

not meaning to sound preachy, your choices and your choices and we'll give you all teh support you need whatever you decide, but sometimes you need to get a bit of perspective on what's right.
 
Oh dear, I'm afraid you've caught all 3 of us being preachy and we're not always like that!

Ah, didn't know you had kids. Same case with me. The tank I was setting up was my son's in his bedroom. I went through a ton of grief from the entire family over the fishless cycling thing and yes it was very tough. What MW mentions though is very real, if you're off on a family outing and decide not to get back to the house as soon as you previously thought and miss a water change or two, then you've got the even worse situation of trying to explain that their new pets died and there's no easy way to do that.

But, on the other hand, if you feel fired up with energy for the month or two of water changes, potentially daily, and decide that's the way you have to go then at least you've found the forum where we can help you with that process as much as possible and in fact its MW that's probably got the best link for you to read. The test kit will be essential so you can know what's going on.

Good luck!
~~waterdrop~~
 

Most reactions

Back
Top