Another cloudy tank and 2 dead mollies

[Jaykwaline]

I've read the previous posts and now know I've messed up. I'll give more details later. Here's my beloved balloon molly erykah who died this afternoon. I changed the substrate although it was from my nursery tank so thought it'd be OK. The previous one was Stinking for the first time ever. I don't have ammonia kit but everything on my api reading was my norm. Had 2 fish die from saddleback a few months ago and all good since. Treated the water, changed it loads and added Epsom salts.
However this past week its all gone pear shaped. I'm going to do a water change now and then have some work I have to do, so I'll report back later. Can anyone see anything that I can't.
She had a damaged eye a few months ago but it all healed nicely. She did lose a lot of her colour. Some of my teenagers (about 6 months old) look very pale but are still playing. Goldie died this morning and had been at the bottom of the tank looking unhappy for last 2 days. His colour was all still there. He was a sunset molly. Other tank mates are 3 male guppies, 3 armamo shrimp, 3 brittlenose placos and some tetra. Tetra all seem normal.
I do have some of the old substrate outside in a bucket but scared to put it back. The have a thin layer of fine gravel at the moment.
I understand from what I read on other posts my tank is back to day one... All my fault, if it ain't broken don't fix it as the saying goes. Never a truer word. She was my first fish and had 11 fry in February but only 5 survived. I thought she was pregnant and put her in nursery tank about 3 weeks ago for 3 days to no avail. I couldn't leave her alone in there any longer so put her back in main tank.
I'll answer any questions later including my kh and gh water parameters. From memory no nitrites, just under 0.5 nitrates and ph 7. Temp 23. Its been 21 but felt cold in there. Stupidly I mixed in warm water last night. Every rooky error I didn't make at the beginning, I seem to have made this last week or so.
Oh was feeding frozen food but lfs said I shouldn't give that every day so mixed it up with bug bites and flakes (as on alternating the feed, not mixing together.
Thank you in advance

 

[Byron]

We need to know the GH when you can provide it, this is critical long-term for mollies.

And an ammonia test would be a good investment, as mollies are particularly sensitive to ammonia (and other nitrogens for that matter|). Nitrates are OK. The warm water would not have killed fish, unless it was a lot and not dechlorinated.

What is the tank size (dimensions as well as volume help)?

 

[Jaykwaline]

The nitrate was 20, nitrite zero. PH 7 (just) gh 120 and kh was more than 120 but not 180 if that makes sense.
Just done big water change and it does look better. Managed to actually get some pics and a short video. There's a couple of fish I'm worried about, as you can see on pics.
One thought is, they do have a habit of biting my fingers and running away, maybe I've had soap or hand gel residue, despite washing my hands, just a thought.
My tank is 24" x 18" high and 18" deep. I will be rehoming a lot of the mollies {I have about 20 3 adults n the offspring) but obviously I can't if I think there's any kind of infection. As you said in a previous post, fish love to reproduce so I do have a lot more mollies than I ever intended. My intention originally was just to build a water garden, no fish but that's another story involving a bear grills type armamo shrimp who survived 3 weeks in just substrate as I had no clue he was in there. Obviously he couldn't live alone so got some more shrimps. My friend had erykah who was getting bullied so I had her and, again she couldn't live alone, and here i am now totally besotted with this motley crew.
As soon as I can I'll be rehoming them.
I have 2 filters in there, some plants and rocks.

 

[Colin_T]

If the water ever smells bad or it goes cloudy, do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for at least a week. Then do it once or twice a week.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

Smelly water is usually caused by ammonia.
Milky cloudy water is usually associated with uneaten food that causes ammonia.

Reduce the feeding to once every couple of days until you know what the ammonia level is.

----------------------
What sort of filter is on the tank?
How often and how do you clean the filter?

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

Yup, what @Colin_T says...milky cloudy is bacteria. Possibly brought on by dead fish and/or overfeeding.

Re hand gels: Some are deliberately designed to stay on the skin and not wash off easily. (Usually, these are the ones that feel like they've been made out of slug slime). They can be washed off, but take a great deal more effort to do so.
Nothing in a hand gel will be particularly beneficial to an aquarium.

On your current problem, there does appear to be a lot of fish in that tank, which would definitely put a strain on your beneficial bacteria. You can help sort this out by BIG water changes, as aleardy suggested.

 

[Byron]

In addition to Colin's post (I agree, just so you know) and Bruce, there is an issue here with the GH. If it is 120, I ssume that is 120 ppm (= mg/l), not 120 dH [which would be frankly impossible]. This is soft water, and mollies cannot last long in water this soft. If it does not kill them, it weakens them and they are then more susceptible to disease and other issues, including the ammonia. You mention rehoming them, and that would be good. They cannot survive for long in soft water.

 

[Jaykwaline]

Thank you so much. I found using those bug pellets difficult as there always seemed loads left. I'm sure they spat them out. The substrate I had was white stones n those pellets seemed to be in very crevice. So I did the right thing by cleaning all the substrate. I thought I'd uncycled the tank. It always looked mucky around the edges n in the corners, so I'm guessing that was the smell. It was awful.
Filters... I've got an interpet Cf1 and a stingray. I've also got a small one but no idea what it is. It's got 2 plastic cages in there that I basically pimp up with the ceramic toilet roll looking things, sponge and stuffing you use for pillows. I do clean this one the most, but it's more of a backup really. The other 2 I leave until I see the flow slowing down. I just rinse them in the water when changing it and change the filters when it's looking completely battered. I try not to change and clean them at the same time (think I read that on here somewhere) I did change them this week though due to the cloudy water. I think I just panicked when I saw the other post this morning about cloudy water.
Thank you for your help n if anyone reading this wants some mollies, they're free to a good home. Incidentally I used the calculator entering all the fish info and it didn't come back overstocked but I guess as time goes on that won't be the case.
Just had my goodnight chat with them (sshh I'm not really crazy) They all seem happy and the water is more misty now than cloudy, so hopefully no unpleasant surprises tomorrow. I adored that fish, daft I know, but they've all got personalities n she was my special girl.
Can I just ask one more question. Can I feed frozen food every day or not. I much preferred itm had no issues from the time I started using it until I stopped. I used to buy four different packs n switch it up. I'd rather use that but was told its too rich to feed everyday
Once again, thank you. This site has been invaluable to me from day 1.

 

[Jaykwaline]

In addition to Colin's post (I agree, just so you know) and Bruce, there is an issue here with the GH. If it is 120, I ssume that is 120 ppm (= mg/l), not 120 dH [which would be frankly impossible]. This is soft water, and mollies cannot last long in water this soft. If it does not kill them, it weakens them and they are then more susceptible to disease and other issues, including the ammonia. You mention rehoming them, and that would be good. They cannot survive for long in soft water.

So how do I harden it? Genuine question.
I've had my fish since November and apart from the saddleback outbreak where 2 died together (one was lying in top of the other when she died and then he died about 15 mins later, it was the sweetest and saddest thing, they always stuck together in the tank), they've been fine until now.
I did read before about them preferring hard water but thought since they were all OK including the fry, my water must be ok. This is now my next mission once the mist clears.

 

[Byron]

Can I just ask one more question. Can I feed frozen food every day or not. I much preferred itm had no issues from the time I started using it until I stopped. I used to buy four different packs n switch it up. I'd rather use that but was told its too rich to feed everyday

Frozen food is not the most nutritious. It somewhat depends upon the food item--for example. frozen daphnia is ideal for fish, though I wouldn't feed it every day [will come back to why not below], whereas frozen bloodworms should only be fed once a week since they are not wholesome. The main problem with frozen foods in general is that food "x" is not going to have all the nutrient value (minerals, vitamins, etc) that the fish need in a balanced diet. They (frozen foods like daphnia and shrimp) are best considered as treats.

For regular feeding, if you feed daily (I do not, I have two and sometimes three "fast" days each week for the fish) it is best to use a couple of good quality prepared/dried foods. This is frankly the only way to ensure a balanced nutritional diet. Even live foods cannot provide this, unless you are able to have a varied diet of different live food comparable to the fish species' natural foods in the habitat, but that is not at all easy and would involve raising several live foods.

Omega One is in my view (shared with nutritionists) one of the best. New Life Spectrum is another. There are a couple more I do not readily know as they are not available locally for me, and I like to support the local independent fish stores when I can. With mollies for example which are primarily vegetarian (though not completely, they are omnivores) green foods like Omeg One's Kelp Flakes are ideal. Other fish will readily eat these too, as they contain not only a good green food but are made with whole fish and such. Feed this twice a week, and alternate with the NLS basic freshwater flake, or some other quality food. Variety is a good idea to ensure a complete balanced diet, and some fish do sometimes show a preference.

 

[Byron]

So how do I harden it? Genuine question.
I've had my fish since November and apart from the saddleback outbreak where 2 died together (one was lying in top of the other when she died and then he died about 15 mins later, it was the sweetest and saddest thing, they always stuck together in the tank), they've been fine until now.
I did read before about them preferring hard water but thought since they were all OK including the fry, my water must be ok. This is now my next mission once the mist clears.

This is doable, but you need to consider the other fish. Soft water species like the tetras will then suffer if the water becomes harder than they require. You could devote a tank solely to hard water fish, which includes all livebearers (guppies, endlers, platies, mollies, swordtails being the most commonly seen in stores), along with some of the rainbowfishes, rift lake cichlids, and some others. Such a tank could have a calcareous substrate sand, and/or be treated with mineral salts (not common salt at all) such as those sold for rift lake cichlids. But the tetras would be better in another tank, depending upon what they are and the GH you establish. Water for water changes would have to be prepared outside the tank if you use the mineral additive.

External problems caused by soft water for hard water fish, or the reverse (hard water for soft water fish) do not usually have external signs. The fish is being severely weakened, and as I said previously it becomes more susceptible to other issues which otherwise it would be able to easily deal with. Sometimes mollies get whitish patches, and shimmying.

GH is primarily calcium and magnesium, and calcium is the more important of the two for fish. Adding Epsom Salt, which is magnesium sulphate, increases the GH because of the magnesium, but there is no calcium so the fish still have problems internally. Their physiology simply cannot function well without the external calcium/magnesium which they assimilate from the water that is continually entering them via osmosis.

 

[Jaykwaline]

Well kelp is an amazing food for us, so I'd have no hesitation with that. I'll check those brands out thank you. They do love blanched broccoli and all of them esp the guppies lose their minds over a stick of blanched cucumber.
I totally agree with you Re supporting independent businesses, it's so important.

 

[Byron]

Well kelp is an amazing food for us, so I'd have no hesitation with that. I'll check those brands out thank you. They do love blanched broccoli and all of them esp the guppies lose their minds over a stick of blanched cucumber.
I totally agree with you Re supporting independent businesses, it's so important.

Yes, I was going to mention blanched veggies too, and forgot. But blanched spinach, zucchini, cucumber, and some others are sometimes relished by fishes. The dried prepared foods are the important for nutrition however.

 

[Jaykwaline]

This is doable, but you need to consider the other fish. Soft water species like the tetras will then suffer if the water becomes harder than they require. You could devote a tank solely to hard water fish, which includes all livebearers (guppies, endlers, platies, mollies, swordtails being the most commonly seen in stores), along with some of the rainbowfishes, rift lake cichlids, and some others. Such a tank could have a calcareous substrate sand, and/or be treated with mineral salts (not common salt at all) such as those sold for rift lake cichlids. But the tetras would be better in another tank, depending upon what they are and the GH you establish. Water for water changes would have to be prepared outside the tank if you use the mineral additive.

External problems caused by soft water for hard water fish, or the reverse (hard water for soft water fish) do not usually have external signs. The fish is being severely weakened, and as I said previously it becomes more susceptible to other issues which otherwise it would be able to easily deal with. Sometimes mollies get whitish patches, and shimmying.

GH is primarily calcium and magnesium, and calcium is the more important of the two for fish. Adding Epsom Salt, which is magnesium sulphate, increases the GH because of the magnesium, but there is no calcium so the fish still have problems internally. Their physiology simply cannot function well without the external calcium/magnesium which they assimilate from the water that is continually entering them via osmosis.

Thank you. Yes they have/had white patches. I do add Epsom salts to the tank so maybe that's helped a little.
Another tank, eh, hmmm. My partner will leave me (but the fish won't lol). I stumbled into this accidentally via a free tank on freecycle. My nursery tank is way too small, it's just a betta tank but I felt it was a better option than the breeding cage but the tetras wouldn't like it. They are the guardians of the caves in this tank. A friend is going to set up a tank soon so maybe she will have the tetras, depending of course on her local water.
Some food for thought there thank you. I want the fish to have as happy a life as they can so stressing them more than necessary is not something I'm comfortable with.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

Many new fishkeepers get the fish and then try to adapt the water conditions to match the fish.
This would also mean that you'll need to tinker with the water every time you do a water change...without fail.
This rarely works out, with dead and suffering animals along the way.
A wholly better approach would be to familiarise yourself with your own water supply, which you test after adding water conditioner.
From the information this will reveal, you then match the fish to the water.
All you need to worry about then is temperatures and water/tank maintenance.

 

[Colin_T]

The way you clean the filter is fine.

You can feed frozen food every day but vary it and feed dry food first.
eg: give fish some flake food. let them eat it then give some frozen food.

You can buy Rift Lake water conditioner to increase the GH, KH and pH of the water. But as Byron mentioned, tetras don't do well in hard water. For best results keep mollies in a tank with hard water and tetras in a tank with soft water.