Angelfish And Tetra Schooling Question

[lindabrooke]

I have 3 angelfish (used to have 4) in my tank. 2 of them have been breeding together pretty consistently, leaving the third one often getting picked on around the time they're about to spawn/in process of spawning. What is a good number of angelfish to have in this situation? Should I add another fish to get it back to 4, or should I add 2 more angelfish? I have a 65 gallon that could definitely allow more. Secondly, I had a pair of black skirted tetras. I lost one of them the other night, should I add another one to have a pair again? Thanks everyone!

 

[Munroco]

I have 4 angels, I have one pair spawning regularly and I think the others are also a pair although I havent seen them spawning, they get on ok most of the time but when its egg laying time their is a bit of threat and display, luckily nothing more serious yet. I think your choices are to either rehome the solitary one or buy some more, hopefully of similar size. Maybe another 3 would be good. I've read of six being the minimum number. Not sure what else is in your tank but you could have a nice school of tetras rather than one or two.

 

[Akasha72]

Hi, well I'll tell you my experience of trying to add adult angels to a tank containing adult adult angels and then you can make up your own mind. I've been shouted at several times now for sharing my thoughts on angels and so I'm just going to recount my experience...
 
I originally had 4 young angelfish - they were around 50p size when they were added. I had two smokey blushings - they came first - then I added a platinum pearlscale and a marbled a couple of weeks later. There was a little bit of opposition from the smokies to the new pair but it wasn't too bad because they were young. In time I found out that the pearlscale, the marbled and one of the smokies were female, the other smokey being the only male. The two smokies then paired up (much to my delight, any fry will be true smokey blushings) and I decided to move them into a seperate tank to see if I could get them breeding. 
This didn't work - as a pair they fell out, the male wasn't fertilizing the eggs and would eat them too so I decided to move them back where they had came from, back with the other two females and close the breeding set up down.
Because they'd grown up together I thought they'd greet each other and all would be well ... how wrong was I! Within seconds the pearlscale female was attacking one of smokies and she had murder in her eyes. I netted her and held her against the tank wall for a few minutes to try and calm her down but as soon as I let her go again she attacked again ... and again ... and again. She had one of the smokies pinned to the tank floor in a corner and she was fit to kill. 
In the end I had to net her and bag her and ring my lfs in a panic. I had no other choice than to remove her and as I wanted to break down the breeder tank I'd have to get rid of her. In the end the lfs agreed to re-home her and the marbled together - they got along fine and I didn't want to seperate them. It broke my heart to let the pearlscale go as she was utterly beautiful but there was no way I could allow her to kill my smokies.
 
What you decide to do now is up to you

 

[Essjay]

I had a pair of black skirted tetras. I lost one of them the other night, should I add another one to have a pair again?

 
Are the black skirt tetras Gymnocorymbus ternetzi, also known as black widow tetras? If they are, you need at least another 5, preferably more, not just 1 as they are shoaling fish.

 

[Akasha72]

I never noticed the question about the tetra's - sorry. Yes, what essjay said - tetra's are schooling fish and need a large group to be at their best. I looked at the black widow tetra (if that is what they are) and all the research said they can be nippy and so I decided against them due to the angels. If kept in a large group though that trait may be kept at bay

 

[Byron]

Your (lindabrook) experiences and those related by Akasha are not at all surprising.  Angelfish live in shoals in the wild, and have an hierarchy within the group.  Obviously, when a pair forms and spawns, either they or the others can move out of range, so to speak, but in the close confines of an aquarium this is not always adequate.  So we need to be careful with numbers.  And, all fish do not behave the same, but it is usually wiser to assume that a given species will behave normally for that species rather than hope the opposite.  It is not always easy to rectify problems, as Akasha's experience clearly illustrates.
 
Adding fish to an existing tank containing one, two or three angelfish is generally not advisable.  Sometimes, removing the angelfish, re-arranging the tank, and then adding all angels together can help, sometimes not.  As you have three, I would either remove the one being picked on and leave the breeding pair, or leave the three together.  I certainly would not add any others now that a breeding pair is present; they will almost assuredly not take kindly to new angelfish entering "their" space, even though they may tolerate the one they have grown up with.  And as for this third, removing or leaving it is something you have to decide based on the interactions.  The stronger the rejection by the pair, the more stress to the third, and this is not kind to the fish and it will almost certainly suffer and likely die.
 
As for the tetra, yes, they should be in a group.  But before you add more of this species, I would reconsider.  The Black Skirt or Black Widow, Gymnocorymbus ternetzi, is not a good tankmate for sedate fish, as Akasha mentions.  Here again different fish within the species may not adhere to the "norm" but one should assume they will, and this species is a fin nipper with sedate fish present.  So I would reconsider re-homing the lone fish and selecting another species.  The Rosy Tetra, Roberti Tetra, and some others in Hyphessobrycon are better choices with angelfish.
 
Byron.

 

[lindabrooke]

Adding fish to an existing tank containing one, two or three angelfish is generally not advisable.  Sometimes, removing the angelfish, re-arranging the tank, and then adding all angels together can help, sometimes not.  As you have three, I would either remove the one being picked on and leave the breeding pair, or leave the three together.  I certainly would not add any others now that a breeding pair is present; they will almost assuredly not take kindly to new angelfish entering "their" space, even though they may tolerate the one they have grown up with.  And as for this third, removing or leaving it is something you have to decide based on the interactions.  The stronger the rejection by the pair, the more stress to the third, and this is not kind to the fish and it will almost certainly suffer and likely die.
 
As for the tetra, yes, they should be in a group.  But before you add more of this species, I would reconsider.  The Black Skirt or Black Widow, Gymnocorymbus ternetzi, is not a good tankmate for sedate fish, as Akasha mentions.  Here again different fish within the species may not adhere to the "norm" but one should assume they will, and this species is a fin nipper with sedate fish present.  So I would reconsider re-homing the lone fish and selecting another species.  The Rosy Tetra, Roberti Tetra, and some others in Hyphessobrycon are better choices with angelfish.
 
Byron.

That's a great suggestion, I may rearrange the tank and try to add all of the angels together (assuming I go with the option of getting a few more).
In regards to the Tetra, as I've said, I currently already have 7 rosy tetras for my schooling fish. I don't think my tank could accommodate another set of schooling fish, would 2-3 for a school for BST be acceptable? They seemed pretty happy in the pair, and once in a while hung out with my Rosy Tetras. Thankfully I've never had the issues as so many have of the BST picking on my Angels. 
 
 

I never noticed the question about the tetra's - sorry. Yes, what essjay said - tetra's are schooling fish and need a large group to be at their best. I looked at the black widow tetra (if that is what they are) and all the research said they can be nippy and so I decided against them due to the angels. If kept in a large group though that trait may be kept at bay

I've heard that as well, but I've actually never had an issue with them and my angelfish. All in all, my fish get along pretty well.
 
 

I have 4 angels, I have one pair spawning regularly and I think the others are also a pair although I havent seen them spawning, they get on ok most of the time but when its egg laying time their is a bit of threat and display, luckily nothing more serious yet. I think your choices are to either rehome the solitary one or buy some more, hopefully of similar size. Maybe another 3 would be good. I've read of six being the minimum number. Not sure what else is in your tank but you could have a nice school of tetras rather than one or two.

That's kind of what's going on in my tank too. They get on fine, but when I notice it looks like they're starting to breed, the aggression definitely comes out. I'm inclined to say I have 1 female and 2 males, though I'm not totally sure. Before my 4th one died, I think I had two pairs. I might buy a few more and see how it does, though it seems to go against everyone's stories. I would prefer not to re-home any of my fish if possible, as I think all in all, I'm really happy with my tank and the fish. I currently have 7 rosy tetras, they're great schooling fish.
 
 
 

Hi, well I'll tell you my experience of trying to add adult angels to a tank containing adult adult angels and then you can make up your own mind. I've been shouted at several times now for sharing my thoughts on angels and so I'm just going to recount my experience...
 
I originally had 4 young angelfish - they were around 50p size when they were added. I had two smokey blushings - they came first - then I added a platinum pearlscale and a marbled a couple of weeks later. There was a little bit of opposition from the smokies to the new pair but it wasn't too bad because they were young. In time I found out that the pearlscale, the marbled and one of the smokies were female, the other smokey being the only male. The two smokies then paired up (much to my delight, any fry will be true smokey blushings) and I decided to move them into a seperate tank to see if I could get them breeding. 
This didn't work - as a pair they fell out, the male wasn't fertilizing the eggs and would eat them too so I decided to move them back where they had came from, back with the other two females and close the breeding set up down.
Because they'd grown up together I thought they'd greet each other and all would be well ... how wrong was I! Within seconds the pearlscale female was attacking one of smokies and she had murder in her eyes. I netted her and held her against the tank wall for a few minutes to try and calm her down but as soon as I let her go again she attacked again ... and again ... and again. She had one of the smokies pinned to the tank floor in a corner and she was fit to kill. 
In the end I had to net her and bag her and ring my lfs in a panic. I had no other choice than to remove her and as I wanted to break down the breeder tank I'd have to get rid of her. In the end the lfs agreed to re-home her and the marbled together - they got along fine and I didn't want to seperate them. It broke my heart to let the pearlscale go as she was utterly beautiful but there was no way I could allow her to kill my smokies.
 
What you decide to do now is up to you

Thanks for your insight. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. Like I said, I'd prefer not to re-home any fish, I may try to add a few more and see how it goes.

 

[Akasha72]

if you want to add more ask the lfs is you can have a return/money back guarentee before buying. That way, if it doesn't work, you know you can return them and your not out of pocket

 

[Byron]

I really would not risk getting Black Skirt Tetra.  And I would let the remaining one live out its days where it is.
 
I have more than 25 years experience with tetra, and I can assure you this would be a big gamble.  Are your angelfish worth risking?  The fact that for some reason the pair decided to be un-normal is no guarantee that two other fish will be the same.  Expect the norm.
 
I think you're taking a risk with adding angelfish too.  And I can assure you that Akasha's experience was not out of the norm.  Up to you of course.  I try not to put my fish at risk when I can avoid it.
 
Byron.