Angel Fish Becoming Aggresive

[cambojnr]

I bought 2 young angelfish the other week which are now in a 30 gal quarantine, but just today for some reason the one which has been the most shy has all of a sudden started bullying the other angelfish in the tank. Now I am not sure whether to take it back to the store and just keep one angel fish alone as I am very unlucky and know I would just get a more aggresive one as a replacement, as I do not want to get more than 2 for them to spread the aggression out as it would not leave much room for other fish when they are fully grown.

And by aggressive I mean it it constantly chasing the other away when it gets near, I can not see any damage to to other angel but if I do see damage I will definitely be taking it back as the aggressor is they ugly duckling of the 2.

So could I just keep the one I like and let it live a solitary life in my 80 gal as I am not sure if the aggression will get worse and if it will survive another 5 weeks of quarantine with the aggressor till I can move them both over to the 80 gal where they will have lots of space to avoid each other?

 

[Byron]

This is a prime example, and I am glad you posted.  Angelfish are shoaling fish, that live in smallish groups.  They will form an hierarchy within the group, and if there are five or six (or more if space permits) this should not cause issues, though now and then an individual fish may be problematic.  The pushing and shoving within the group is normal, expected, and not an issue.  However, male/female are likely to be present and if a pair should form, the other angelfish may be treated roughly and sometimes need to be removed.
 
If you don't want five or six (and an 80g is sufficient space for these, though I don't know what other fish you have), stay with one alone.  Groups of two, three and four usually result in what you are describing.  One fish will get picked on, and as this continues it becomes more serious, usually leading to the death of the bullied fish.  A male and female pair that have accepted each other and bonded is the only exception to the group rule; not all males will accept all females, and vice-versa.
 
Byron.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Absolutely agreed with Byron's post. Nailed it!
 
Just a little more info on anglefish and one proviso, angels generally need a high tank, minimum 60cm / 24 inches as they do grow fairly large.
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/35001-angelfish/
 
 
http/www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pterophyllum-scalare/

 

[cambojnr]

This is a prime example, and I am glad you posted.  Angelfish are shoaling fish, that live in smallish groups.  They will form an hierarchy within the group, and if there are five or six (or more if space permits) this should not cause issues, though now and then an individual fish may be problematic.  The pushing and shoving within the group is normal, expected, and not an issue.  However, male/female are likely to be present and if a pair should form, the other angelfish may be treated roughly and sometimes need to be removed.
 
If you don't want five or six (and an 80g is sufficient space for these, though I don't know what other fish you have), stay with one alone.  Groups of two, three and four usually result in what you are describing.  One fish will get picked on, and as this continues it becomes more serious, usually leading to the death of the bullied fish.  A male and female pair that have accepted each other and bonded is the only exception to the group rule; not all males will accept all females, and vice-versa.
 
Byron.

Great information, thank you. I might just go buy 4 more quite young Angels and see if that sorts it, then just rehome them when larger as I do really like them, but I just do not want them to take up so much room in my tank and not allow for other fish. As I imagine after their 6 week quarantine and they have been put in the 80gal they will have more room to avoid each other. As 30 gal is quite small, but so are the Angels at the moment, and it's all I have to quarantine in.

 

[Byron]

As you mention size, and I'm not sure of your level of knowledge, I will just mention that angelfish get largish; a 6-inch body length with an 8-inch (perhaps longer) vertical fin span.  And tankmaters must be carefully choosen, as the sedate cruising behaviour of angels is a prime target for fin nipping, and many otherwise peaceful fish (like some of the tetras) will here fin nip.
 
A 30g QT is fine; they are not going to outgrow that in a normal QT period of say 5-6 weeks.
 
I personally am not a fan of acquiring fish for a set period with the intention of re-homing.  I acquire fish with the expectation they will be in my tank until they die, and die hopefully of old age.  Moving from one environment to another is stressful, because unlike any land animal a fish is much more closely connected physiologically to the water it lives in, and then there are the other environmental factors like tank size, aquascaping, and tankmates, all of which can seriously impact any fish when introduced into a new habitat.
 
Byron.

 

[cambojnr]

As you mention size, and I'm not sure of your level of knowledge, I will just mention that angelfish get largish; a 6-inch body length with an 8-inch (perhaps longer) vertical fin span.  And tankmaters must be carefully choosen, as the sedate cruising behaviour of angels is a prime target for fin nipping, and many otherwise peaceful fish (like some of the tetras) will here fin nip.
 
A 30g QT is fine; they are not going to outgrow that in a normal QT period of say 5-6 weeks.
 
I personally am not a fan of acquiring fish for a set period with the intention of re-homing.  I acquire fish with the expectation they will be in my tank until they die, and die hopefully of old age.  Moving from one environment to another is stressful, because unlike any land animal a fish is much more closely connected physiologically to the water it lives in, and then there are the other environmental factors like tank size, aquascaping, and tankmates, all of which can seriously impact any fish when introduced into a new habitat.
 
Byron.

just purchased 4 quarter size Angels and am drip acclimating them now, I would love to keep them all, and I will keep them all aslong as they get along, but if they don't sort out a hierarchy and start damaging each other I will have to rehome.

 

[SeanTrollope]

you must remember "not many other fish can be kept with angels"

 

[cambojnr]

you must remember "not many other fish can be kept with angels"

the only other fish are the ones in my sig, and I will just be bumping up the numbers and maybe getting some cardinals.

 

[Byron]

 

you must remember "not many other fish can be kept with angels"

the only other fish are the ones in my sig, and I will just be bumping up the numbers and maybe getting some cardinals.
 

 
By "fire head tetra" do you mean the species Hemigrammus bleheri, what many call rummynose tetra?  That is fine, but if you mean another species, please mention it; common names are so often meaningless because they are "common" to those using them and others may have very different fish in mind, and there are some tetra with "fire" in the name that would be disastrous with angelfish.
 
Byron.

 

[cambojnr]

you must remember "not many other fish can be kept with angels"

the only other fish are the ones in my sig, and I will just be bumping up the numbers and maybe getting some cardinals.

 
By "fire head tetra" do you mean the species Hemigrammus bleheri, what many call rummynose tetra?  That is fine, but if you mean another species, please mention it; common names are so often meaningless because they are "common" to those using them and others may have very different fish in mind, and there are some tetra with "fire" in the name that would be disastrous with angelfish.
 
Byron.yes, they are what are normally referred to as rummynoses, but mine have full red heads, not just noses. How many more of the rummys do you think I could get, I was thinking of bringing the numbers up to 20, then that would be my tank fully stocked?

 

[Byron]

yes, they are what are normally referred to as rummynoses, but mine have full red heads, not just noses. How many more of the rummys do you think I could get, I was thinking of bringing the numbers up to 20, then that would be my tank fully stocked?
 

 
Those will be Hemigrammus bleheri.  The "original" rummynose, Hemigrammus rhodostomus, has a less vivid red and it does not extend as far back; this species is rarely if ever seen in the hobby now, as everyone wants the more vividly coloured H. bleheri, and these are the "rummynose" or whatever one calls them.  There is also the "false" rummynose, Petitella georgiae, that is sometimes seen.  I have a largish group of H. bleheri and P. georgiae together and they clearly see themselves as closely related, since they never separate but remain in a tight group and have for several years now.
 
This is one of the nicest "schooling" freshwater aquarium fish.  Individuals seldom separate from the group, and they like to swim as a group length to length.  They remain in the lower third of the water level, so they are generally out of the angelfish's range which is the upper 2/3.  This tetra is one that needs more in the group than many other species, and I would say never less than 12 or so, but as is always the case with shoaling fish the more the better; your idea of a group of 20 is excellent.
 
Byron.

 

[cambojnr]

Well it's been 5 days now and when I am looking at the tank, all the angels now just associate me with food, so the aggresive one is constantly nipping and chasing the other Angels away even though I put plenty in so all of them get some. And any time I am next to the tank it chases and nips at the others, even though the other angel have no signs of damage on fins our scales, do you think it might be time to take it back to the store, Our because there is no damage is it just asserting that it's in charge?

 

[Alasse]

Are they still in the QT tank? Or in the main tank?
 
If they are all now in the main tank, remove the aggressor to the QT tank for a good week or so, then put him back. He will now be bottom of the pack and generally this can settle an angels aggression
 
I have 11 in my tank and will be adding another at some stage, my main group give newcomers a bit of grief, but as there is that many of them they soon lose interest.

 

[Byron]

I agree.  But I would also like to pick up on your observation, as I am wondering if you are seeing "normal" behaviour or aggression beyond the normal.
 
Angelfish within a group will "challenge" each other regularly, this is part of their inherent behaviours.  The purpose of a group of five or more is to spread this out so no individual fish is picked on.  The hierarchy within a group of angels is natural, but in an aquarium there is no place for individual fish to escape so it is important we monitor the situation.
 
To illustrate, I'll post a video I came across a while back, showing a group (here around 11 or 12 I believe) of wild-caught Pterophyllum scalare (the "original" common angelfish) in an aquarium.  You will see how they continually challenge each other, but no damage is inflicted; this is how they should behave.  I have seen identical behaviour in the group of 15 or so in the display at the Vancouver Aquarium.  The fish remain close to each other, challenging continually.  This may help determine if what you are now seeing is acceptable or still trouble.
 
https/www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gXVgWLbZ-g

 

[cambojnr]

Managed to get a vid, also noticed a bit of fin damage in the other larger angel, what do you think? Skip to 0:20 to not waste 20 seconds of your life.
http/youtu.be/JZONnPESxwM