Ammonia Trouble (10 Galllon)

[KevJ87]

Hello guys,
 
I am having an issue with my 10 gallon, first was the cloudiness but we got that cleared up (it seems that the water clarity was actually causing the cloudiness).
 
I always seem to have issues with Ammonia in my small tanks. Here are the chemical readings on the tests.
 
((( Tests done with  API  Master Fresh Water Kit )))
 
High Range Ph :  7.5
PH :   7.6
Ammonia : 2.0 ppm
Nitrite : 0 ppm
Nitrate : 0 ppm
 
 
For some reason it seems as if the Ammonia is getting stuck in the first stage, not converting what so ever. The tank is cycled now and I only have 5 small Fancy Guppies in the 10 gallon.
 
The filter is a Whisper 10 gallon,  I am using the Activated Carbon filters and it contains a black foam (bio sponge). I have not rinsed the bio sponge ever so it should have decent bacteria growth so I am very concerned and freaking out a little bit.
 
 
The only thing I can think of is that the filter even though designed for a 10 gallon is not sufficient enough for Bio Filtration (not enough media or space in the filter for bacteria growth?)
 
 
The tank current contains :::
 
2 Fake Plants (Silk)
1 Chinese Garden Gazebo Home
1 Small little house/hut type thing.
1 Long Air Stone ( Triange shape about 6 inches long )
 
Fish ::  5 Guppies
 
___________________________________________________
 
Any advice would be great! I am really thinking of either modifying the filter myself somehow and adding another compartment for the water to flow through some additional media or taking out the Carbon Filter Replacements they suggest using and inserting media for bio filtration. Maybe just wrapping the intake with a sponge for mechanical.
 
Thoughts ??

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I think you should read here http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433769-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-i/
 
I think your should also read here http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first/

 

[Mamashack]

to TFF, Kev! Sorry you are having issues with your tank.
How long have you had your tank and how did you cycle it? A properly cycled tank shouldn't have any ammonia and should show some nitrates no matter how low. It's very unlikely that there are no nitrates at all. 

 

[KevJ87]

The tank has been up for around a month and half now, the cycle method was Fish - In  ( I know don't kill me, I never knew about fishless and was never told about it at the local fish stores ) Now that I know I am fishless cycling my custom built tank.
 
The tank is clear and has no strange issues or smells. The nitrite and nitrates are both coming back at exactly 0 ppm, can't even be mistaken as anything either because the leap in color from 0 to anything is quite dramatic with the api test. 
 
The whole thing seems very strange to me, ammonia is getting stuck in first stage and not breaking down what so ever, I am wondering if maybe it was due to using Ammonia Safe products a few weeks back, if it turned the free ammonia into a non-toxic forum or something and in doing so made it so the bacteria can't consume/grow with that type of ammonia? 
 
I have no idea and I am stumped, I am doing 50 % water changes every ot her day and 20 % on the off days and the ammonia bounces from 1.0 ppm right after a change and climbs to 2.0 ppm again the next day.
 
 
*** P.S -
                I read the link you gave me to the company that sells colonized sponge filters and was wondering something, why is it that a decent company like that suggests that fish-less cycles are actually bad? I than went and tried to find some other sources and found that fish-less cycles can actually lead to many problems later on, especially when fish are finally added and additives stop? Now I am confused on if I should continue the fish-less cycle on my custom tank?
 
 
Regarding sponge filters, I have a HOB Whisper at the moment, but I have an Air pump connected to a large air stone, would you advise removing the air stone and hooking up my airline to a little sponge type filter for more filtration and more surface for bacteria?

 

[Mamashack]

I would always recommend fishless cycling as it is less stressful for the fish (and you ultimately) altho you have to be patient as it takes about 5 weeks to do it properly.
LFS do not recommend it as it means less income for them in the end (and tbh I'll bet they don't even know how to do it). If you lose fish you'll go back for more. If they become sick you'll go to buy meds. They can't lose, can they? ...............
........... unless you do fishless cycling and then you are likely to have healthy fish that live much longer and are less prone to disease, in which case they make less money. However they are there to make money so it makes sense that they are doing what they are doing. Not fair on the fish tho!
Not sure who you were speaking to regarding the link about colonized sponge filters.
Might be useful to post the link here so that we can all see what you are talking about.

 

[KevJ87]

The guy that replied to my post above, the first link he posted click on that on the bottom it say's how they don't recommend fish-less cycles thats why I was confused.
 
But back on topic, given the additional information on my 10 gallon that I gave you do you have any idea what could be happening?

 

[Mamashack]

Try to concentrate on what the article says rather than following the links at the end of it. I think it could get a bit confusing otherwise.
What TTA has done is to write a single resource that people in your position can refer to and follow without having to trawl round lots of articles and get lots of conflicting advice.

 

[KevJ87]

I am just so stumped on how a month and half old tank is not showing any signs of ammonia consumption? I mean if there was bacteria in there doing its job I should be seeing some nitrates at least but both Nitire and Nitrate at 0 ppm with API test and ammonia at 2.0 I am going insane... I have never had good luck with small tanks.

 

[Mamashack]

When you do a fish-in cycle it can take longer than a fishless cycle would because you need to keep the ammonia at a safe level for the fish. This then reduces what feeds the bacteria to grow and hence it takes longer to cycle.
Have you got access to some mature media? From a mature tank - some mature substrate for instance or a donation of filter material? If you know someone with a mature tank or can persuade your LFS to let you have some of theirs it might help to introduce decent numbers of bacteria.. 
There are a couple of bacterial additives that you can buy - Dr Tim's One and Only or Tetra Safe Start. These are the only 2 that have the required nitrifying bacteria. None of the others available at the moment do. If you could get either of those and add it to the tank it can only help.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The guy who runs angelsplus is great with a lot of things, but he is weak on some of the science. What you read and referred to is basically a sales pitch for his filter.
 
So ask yourself this. He is selling cycled media. That means it contains bacteria. Where did those bacteria originate? He cycles them fishlessly- so he is playing on the ignorance of customers in this area to scare them into using his product. His product is fine, but it is 100% the result of a fishless cycle. To make the bacteria multiply there is only one way- add ammonia (or nitrite for those bacteria if grown on their own).
 
However, the one drawback to a fishless cycle, if one uses media from an established tank, is that any pathogens in that tank come in along with the good bacteria we are moving over. But if a tank has not got problems, those pathogens are rarely an issue. It is not the complete absence of germs etc. in a tank that is what protects the fish. It is their own immune systems that do this. When fish are healthy, they naturally resist a lot of things. When they are stressed or underfed they are at risk. So unless on moves things from a "sick" tank over, there is rarely any danger.
 
But if you are all that worried, then you have alternatives. Both Dr. Tim and Tetra sell bottled bacteria that you can use to cycle your tank. These products are free of pathogens. Dr. Tim's product is superior and I have used it a few times with great success. The difference between the bottled bacteria and the cycled sponge filters is the bottled can be used to seed a tank itself and any sort of filter one may wish to use.
 
All to the articles on fishless cycling suggest using pure ammonia- no additives. Easy to find if you want it. But I can tell you something else I do not normally tell folks to do. I have cycled over 75 tanks now (I used to set up and take down 5-6 tanks every summer for a decade and had to cycle them back up every year), I have 18-20 running most times and have to set up extras now and then for breeding related needs.
 
For many years I used plain old ammonia that contained surfactants (but no other additives). I must have cycled 50 tanks this way and never lost a fish, In fact I had a few fish born in tanks where I was dosing ammonia as I unknowingly moved over eggs with some decor or a plant. Despite all you read about not using ammonia with surfactants, these never caused me a problem. However, I used a different method than the one in the article here. I ran carbon in the filters and did several water changes along the way. I guess, between the water changes and the carbon, the surfactants were a non-issue. Considering how little the amount of surfactants in the ammonia actually is and the fact that before any fish went in I did a final massive water change, that and the wcs and carbon seems to have gotten me through just fine.
 
But going back in time it was a lot harder to find pure ammonia. Today it is easy and I now use Dr. Tim's ammonium chloride which is a much better way to go, imo.
 
Let me leave you with a bit of common sense. Fishless cycling has become the prevalent method for getting a tank cycled for some time now. People have been using ammonia etc. for many years. If this were a dangerous method, if it was less safe than using fish, how can you explain the following facts:
 
1. Most tanks are now cycled fishlessly.
2. Most people do not wipe out their fish when they add them because their tank has something in it that results from a fishless cycle. If they did it would be posted all over the net and fishless cycling would be reviled.
3. Read the research into this topic. By that I mean the science not the anecdotal evidence on fish related sites. But start here which is the site of one of the leading Ph.D.s who did the laboratory research into this subject and which identified the specific bacteria at work in tanks and then ask why he suggest fishless cycling? http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/how-to-start
 
Then if you are so inclined you can read the published peer reviewed studies http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/library-presentations/scientific-papers

 

[KevJ87]

Thank you guys so much for your help, I bought the bottled bacteria and magically a few days later I now have readings of Nitrates around 4. I guess with a month and a half my tank failed to produce ANY bacteria to consume the ammonia and produce the chain effect leading to nitrates until I bought the bottled. This might have had something to do with the chemicals I was using to try and treat the ammonia myself (ammonia safe / ammonia remove / ammo-lock etc) or it might have had to do with something I have little or know knowledge of. 
 
Either way, thanks for all the information I have been reading a lot of it and still have a lot more to do, hopefully I can get this new tank cycled without fish and everything goes according to plan, I  think I might go with the bottled bacteria to cycle the new tank (finish setting up in a few days) instead of adding pure ammonia since I have not the slightest clue where to find it and I hate paying shipping fees hah. Thanks again guys!
 
P.S -  The adding of the bacteria have seemed to increase the happiness of the guppy community in the tank.
 
P.P.S -  I was told to add  Kosher Salt to my tank (1 tbsp per 10 gallon) by a friend so I did this as he said kosher salt is fine enough to use on tanks without having to spend money on aquarium salt. Was this the right move or was he completely wrong??

 

[TwoTankAmin]

You do not need the salt. Kosher is fine for salt needs- salt is salt. This is not the same this is not the same thing as a salt mix for sw tanks. This mix contains other needed things beside the salt.
 
You figured it out- if you put in things that remove ammonia, there is none left for the bacteria. Some of those things can cause false ammonia readings as well.
 
To cycle a tank which contains fish, you still need to let ammonia rise to a reasonable level to get the tank cycled rapidly w/o harming the fish. And how high is dealt with in Part II of the articles I linked you to.

 

[Ninjouzata]

Either way, thanks for all the information I have been reading a lot of it and still have a lot more to do, hopefully I can get this new tank cycled without fish and everything goes according to plan, I  think I might go with the bottled bacteria to cycle the new tank (finish setting up in a few days) instead of adding pure ammonia since I have not the slightest clue where to find it and I hate paying shipping fees hah. 

You can find ammonia at Ace Hardware. Sorry if I missed you saying you already looked there.