Ammonia Spike.

[snazy]

Hence why the vast majority of people on this forum recommend a fishless cycle. That way no fish are getting exposed to any ammonia or nitrate at all for any period of time.

I agree that is probably the best approach. I actually checked all shops for ammonia to do a fishless cycle prior to that. The guy in one of the LFS nearly got a heart attack when I asked him where I could buy some locally, and said he would never put artificial toxic ammonia in his tanks . But what can you expect from fish shops...

 

[snazy]

I agree that is probably the best approach. I actually checked all shops for ammonia to do a fishless cycle prior to that. The guy in one of the LFS nearly got a heart attack when I asked him where I could buy some locally, and said he would never put artificial toxic ammonia in his tanks . But what can you expect from fish shops...

Actually, to be more specific about the LFS guy, he said that he has 10 tanks at his home. He said that in order to cycle them he normally leaves them run for 5-6 weeks without fish, which part I just failed to understand? If there is no ammonia source, then why is he waisting his time leaving his tank running?
Anyway, he showed me the new tank he had setup in the shop(Juwel 60G). He said he ran it for a few weeks, then he fed the tank for 4-5 days with fish food, and then he added the fish(there were a school of tetras in it).
In my opinion he actually adds the fish when there is toxic ammonia from the fish food, which I again just could not believe a so called experienced person would be recommending?
He measured the ammonia and nitrites in the newly setup tank in front of me telling me there is barely anything and the fish are fine and I should never do cycling with ammonia. I could see the purple on the nitrites test, but he was very quick putting it away. Then he recommended a bottle of something that he normally puts to help the cycle, which I failed to memorize as I already wasn't listening to what he was saying.
I actually passed by the shop a week later on purpose to see how this tank was doing and saw a half of dead tetra on the bottom. He had also added at least 20 more fish in the same tank and I doubt it it was yet cycled....

So so much about the advice from your local LFS guy

 

[colleen0309]

First of all, to the OP, Keep doing your water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrites down to safer levels until you get double 0s when you test for a full week. Hopefully things will balance out for you quickly.
Now, for you, snazy. I really do understand where you are coming from and ten years ago, I might have agreed with you. Now, I won't agree with you. Yes, your cycle will go faster. If this method works for you, fine, but I can not say it is right. You are using Tetra Safe Start to boost your cycle. But whether or not you can see the damage you are causing your fish, you are still causing damage. Ammonia and nitrites in those concentrations are poison. We do water changes during a cycle to keep these levels down so they cause less damage to our fish. This is why we suggest fishless cycling. This is a world of instant gradification. The quickest way is not always the best way. Try something for me. Hold an ammonia soaked rag over your mouth and nose for one minute, breathing normally. Bet you can't do it without choking. This is what you are subjecting your fish to for an entire week or more. That's 10,080 times longer than the one minute I asked from you.
We do our cycles in ways that will cause as little damage as possible, or try to. Having an ammonia spike of 4ppm is causing damage whether you can see the effects right away or not. Leaving the level that high, for any reason is irresponcible. Sure, your cycle finishes faster, but at what cost?

 

[snazy]

You are using Tetra Safe Start to boost your cycle.

I only commented on this thread with my opinion, because I guess it is stupid to suggest a fishless cycle to this person at this stage

I don't see a problem speeding up a cycle when possible. I would not call it "boosting" though.
10 years ago most of the "cycle boosters" on the market contained the wrong bacteria for nitrites due to some bad scientific research. Now this has been solved. Instead of waiting for the bacteria to appear and start growing in your aquarium, you can introduce it in other ways these days.

And yes, I can't check if the fish got any invinsible long term damage, only time will tell... but so are people who do fish in cycle with water changes and prayers for the ammonia to drop....then to start getting a nitrite reading, only to realise that it takes twice as long for the nitrites to drop to zero afterwards as this bacteria grows even slower.

Anyway, I don't get your point about the normal fish in cycle with water changes. Is it not causing long term damage to fish? Does it not cause gasping,heavy breathing, red gills, burnt fins, etc...? And normally just about when your cycle is done after great patience and massive regular water changes, you get a desease outbreak because your fish are so weak. So you are telling me that these fish exhibiting these signs have better chance of not getting long term damage than my fish that showed no signs of stress at all?

 

[snazy]

And to Shaddex: Sorry to intrude your thread, only trying to help..

You have to find out if your reading are correct.
Then if the tank is recycling again all of a sudden, there must be some other cause for it, either wiping out all your bacteria somehow, or you have a source of very high ammonia..and in the mean time cycle your tank and save your fish one way or another.
Not sure what type of tests you use, but if you used to get 0 nitrates, and you are using Api liquid tests, then you need to shake the hell out of bottle 2 to get a correct reading. 0 nitrate reading is nearly not possilbe in a cycled tank unless you use some nitrate removers.

And it is kind of strange to get 0 ammonia for a few days and then a reading of 5. Hopefully it is a faulty test.

 

[The Taffy Apple]

You favour the fish-in cycle, i (and the vast majority of this forum) do not.
Each to their own i guess.


Terry.

 

[colleen0309]

You are using Tetra Safe Start to boost your cycle.

I only commented on this thread with my opinion, because I guess it is stupid to suggest a fishless cycle to this person at this stage

I don't see a problem speeding up a cycle when possible. I would not call it "boosting" though.
10 years ago most of the "cycle boosters" on the market contained the wrong bacteria for nitrites due to some bad scientific research. Now this has been solved. Instead of waiting for the bacteria to appear and start growing in your aquarium, you can introduce it in other ways these days.

And yes, I can't check if the fish got any invinsible long term damage, only time will tell... but so are people who do fish in cycle with water changes and prayers for the ammonia to drop....then to start getting a nitrite reading, only to realise that it takes twice as long for the nitrites to drop to zero afterwards as this bacteria grows even slower.

Anyway, I don't get your point about the normal fish in cycle with water changes. Is it not causing long term damage to fish? Does it not cause gasping,heavy breathing, red gills, burnt fins, etc...? And normally just about when your cycle is done after great patience and massive regular water changes, you get a desease outbreak because your fish are so weak. So you are telling me that these fish exhibiting these signs have better chance of not getting long term damage than my fish that showed no signs of stress at all?

The difference between our way and your way is we do large water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrites down to safer levels. You don't do water changes and the levels skyrocket and expose the fish to deadly levels. When I've had to do fish in cycles, and I've done alot of them in the 45 years I've had tanks, I don't have heavy breathing, gasping, red gills, burnt fins, ect... I work my a** off doing enough water changes to keep this from happening. There is no way I believe your fish are comfortable with ammonia 4ppm and nitrites 5ppm. When I do a fish in cycle, my levels don't reach 1ppm for either.
So after all is said and done, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. If it works for you, do it your way, but I will not agree with your method.

 

[snazy]

The difference between our way and your way is we do large water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrites down to safer levels. You don't do water changes and the levels skyrocket and expose the fish to deadly levels. When I've had to do fish in cycles, and I've done alot of them in the 45 years I've had tanks, I don't have heavy breathing, gasping, red gills, burnt fins, ect... I work my a** off doing enough water changes to keep this from happening. There is no way I believe your fish are comfortable with ammonia 4ppm and nitrites 5ppm. When I do a fish in cycle, my levels don't reach 1ppm for either.
So after all is said and done, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. If it works for you, do it your way, but I will not agree with your method.

As I mentioned previously, I think the ammonia was in non-toxic level, although I did not have this type of test to confirm so this is not to be taken for granted. But I definately will buy a proper test for the next tank to see if I am correct.
On the first tank,the ammonia stayed for about 5 days at 2ppm constant, then spiked to 4ppm for a day, then I got a nitrite spike of 2ppm which started dropping rapidly and by the next evening was 0 and tank has not had a problem since.
On the second tank, and surprisingly the more stocked one, the ammonia reached 1ppm the 2nd day and stayed like that for another 4-5 days. On about the 5th day the ammonia had dropped to about 0.50 and I got a nitrite reading at the same time of 0.25ppm. I tested the nitrates out of curiosity and they had rised to about 10-15 at the same time(tap water is 5 only).This was again in the evening. When I tested the next evening, I could not tell if nitrite was 2ppm or 5, ammonia was 0, nitrates were over 20ppm. The nitrites dropped to 0 during the next day and the second tank was cycled.
Strange that for both tanks nitrite spike did not last long.

And believe it or not, fish were having no signs of stress, were eating like savages, looking great in my opinion.

And in relation to very big water changes, the Ph of my tap water is 6.6 and the tanks are at Ph 7.6. I can actually kill my fish with one big water change faster than any ammonia/nitrite can do. So I can do max 20-25% at once the most.

If what you are doing works for you, and it's been like that for 45 years, then well done.
Everyone has their way.

Regards,

 

[Shaddex]

No that's a hijacked thread ..

Sorted now..

 

[colleen0309]

So glad you got everything worked out! And really sorry for the hijack!

 

[snazy]

Yeah, , first of all I am so sorry for hijacking your thread as well.

You said it is all ok now.

Did you confirm that the sudden 5ppm ammonia was due to bad API test, or your tank had a "mini" cycle?

 

[nanoMama86]

I wonder if anyone has stopped to think if the one opinion is better than the other, why one person is having such a problem with his tank, and the people on the other side of the fence, me and snazzy, who are so wrong, have had such stable tanks over such a long period. I am all about large water changes when cycling a fish-in, but I do use tetra safestart to kick my cycle off the floor and get it moving. I put it in the filter only once, at 2x the dose, then dose my tank with 5-6ppm ammo daily until I get the desired double0's for a ammo-only cycle. Then I add fish, and start my 50% a week water change regiment.
It takes a week to cycle a tank this way. You get an incredibly strong, hardy bacterial colony this way.

Shaddex, maybe just TRY a fresh bottle if you keep having problems and see what happens? It won't hurt and certainly could fix your problem. All I want is for everyone to enjoy their fish and enjoy keeping them.