Ammonia Again?

[waterdrop]

Well you could easily start with a tablespoon of baking soda, probably we might decide on more later. keep logs

 

[D3m]

k m8, I will go add a tablespoon and see where that gets me

 

[backtotropical]

Hi D3m,

You seem to be in good hands already.......

The mature media from your friend's tank should help you along your way.

One thing i would say is that your constant pH drops indicate that you probably have quite soft water. Do you know if that is the case?

Bogwood will help to lower the pH, not raise it, so until you sort out the pH crashes, the bogwood is probably best removed.

Good luck and keep us updated on your progress.

BTT

edit: just read back and seen that you have already said your water is very soft.

 

[waterdrop]

Many thanks for popping in for a check whenever you can BTT, need all the double-checking I can get, been busy with work lately and thus being a little too rushed I'm afraid on advice. "takes a village" as they say,

~~waterdrop~~

 

[D3m]

Well I put a tablespoon in last night and then checked it this morning and the ph was upto around 7.5 so I added another teaspoon of it and tonight its between 8 and 8.5, so fingers crossed this might start doing the trick.

Also does anyone from the uk know of any online shops where I can get crushed coral from to stabilise the ph when its fully cycled?

 

[waterdrop]

Its very important to understand that even though you might want the 8 to 8.4 during cycling for the bacteria, you may not necessarily need the crushed coral and adjustments like that after you have fish. Its ideal not to have to do any kind of adjusting of the pH over the long periods of time that a tank is up and running with fish. It could be that once the cycle (which pushes somewhat harder down on the pH) is over and fish are in, you will be able to maintain an ok pH just by doing the proper gravel cleans and water changes, and this is highly desirable in terms of maintenance.

Later if you do end up choosing to use crushed coral, remind me then and I'll relate the bits of lore about it that I know if you can't find it in one of my or another member's posts.

NOW, back to the baking soda. You will need to monitor KH along with pH and of course if you do a water change you will now have to recharge baking soda as well as ammonia. You are watching to see when the cycle process has pushed the KH below say about 3 and then you can anticipate that the pH may begin to drop, so it will be time for more baking soda. Usually the recharge of that can be timed with a water change if you are in the second phase of fishless (haven't checked back to see if that's where you maybe are..)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[D3m]

If second stage is waiting for nitrites to drop then thats exactly where im at, as soon as I get the ph/kh test kit i will do some monitoring of it. I was under the impression though that you dont do water changes in a fishless cycle unless something is wrong, if im back on the right track with high ph would'nt I be leaving that until the end?

 

[waterdrop]

Well, there's a bit of controversey about it. Fishless Cycling: My feeling is that its true that you want to resist doing water changes as much as possible during the first phase where you are waiting for ammonia to start dropping, before nitrite has spiked. This is because each water change seems to create a multiday pause which just ends up being lost time.

The different lines of thought come after nitrite is clearly spiking, what we often call the second phase, the longer phase of fishless cycling usually. During this time there are two reasons we sometimes recommend some water changes on an individual basis. The first reason may have some scientific validity and is simply that Dr. Hovanec, the one fishless cycler around here who's actually published stuff on the topic, tells us that very high nitrite(NO2) and/or nitrate(NO3) levels may inhibit N-Bac growth. So a water change obviously can bring these levels down. The second reason is totally different and is simply that some beginners go nuts during this period, because they've been waiting so long and can't see that anything seems to be happening and sometimes we recommend the water changes just so nitrite will be down in the measurable range and will "entertain" them with varying numbers ( .) Another thing we sometimes do along a similar vein is to only add ammonia to 3ppm during the early part of phase two, so that not so many nitrites will be produced in the first place. This has virtually no effect on the A-Bac population, it seems. Then towards the end of phase two we gradually ease back up from 3ppm to 5ppm so that the colony sizes will be at full strength at the end when they are dropping ammonia and nitrite to zero within 12 hours and you are doing the "qualifying" week.

Now, none of this fancy stuff is really necessary and the fishless cycler who just steadily plugs away adding 5ppm the next day after ammonia has dropped to zero, and simply watches the nitrite being "pegged" up there at 5+ for sometimes weeks, will eventually have the same thrill of seeing both ammonia and nitrite drop to zero in less and less time and finally in less than 12 hours, so they can celebrate by doing their "qualifying" week and then get fish. We certainly have no data and couldn't really claim that we can support that the fancy stuff reliably speeds things up but its one of the "hunches" that feels good I'd say.

(How'd you like the "long version" )

~~waterdrop~~

 

[D3m]

Blimey!!! That version is just fine thanks Waterdrop!

Ive done the necessary tests tonight:

Ph 7.5 - 8
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 3.5 - 5 (Not sure the colours are so similar)

Kh 7 Drops
GH 10 Drops

Which on the API Conversion Chart relates to:

Kh 125.3 ppm
Gh 161.1 ppm

Not sure if thats good or bad tbh, what do you think?

 

[waterdrop]

Blimey!!! That version is just fine thanks Waterdrop!

Ive done the necessary tests tonight:

Ph 7.5 - 8
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 3.5 - 5 (Not sure the colours are so similar)

Kh 7 Drops
GH 10 Drops

Which on the API Conversion Chart relates to:

Kh 125.3 ppm
Gh 161.1 ppm

Not sure if thats good or bad tbh, what do you think?

Ok, that looks good, glad you reported all that D3m. Nice to know your GH once but from now you can just report only the KH and only the number of drops (eg. KH 7 drops or KH=7). It looks like your baking soda has raised the pH some, right? We'll have to keep an eye and if it holds there we might consider another tablespoon full (since its a pretty big 180L) and see if the pH would creep up over 8.

I was looking all the way back in your thread and realized that MW and I seemed to miss that you had been putting pieces of bogwood in there and in fact that could be the thing that's adding to driving your pH down. I wouldn't say pull it out but its nice to understand that that may be the reason we got the crashes and slowdowns as cycling will pull pH downward but that would have added more. Hopefully our baking soda will counteract that.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[D3m]

The Baking Soda has definitely put the ph to around the 8 mark which im really happy about, the kh is 7 again tonight and everything else is the same as yesterday. I will keep the bogwood in I think and just keep a daily check on the ph. Im hoping now two months later that this is the step in the right direction and im about to turn a corner. Fishless cycling might be the best for the fishes health but it certainly aint for mine I've never felt such frustration day after day just from checking nitrite levels that never drop!

 

[D3m]

Done the daily checks last night and:

Ammonia 0
KH 7
Nitrites 0

I could'nt believe it, over the moon is an understatement; so I raised the ammonia back up to 5ppm last night and checked the nitrites again this morning and they are back down to 0.3 allready. So it looks like im almost at the end of the cycle.
I added all the plants back in the morning too and will now just wait for everything to drop in 10 hours or less.

Big Thanks to everyine who helped me through this with great advice, Especially Waterdrop (you was with me all the way Buddy )

Pictures will be on the way once the fish are in!

 

[waterdrop]

Congratulations D3m

You have been practicing the patience and its paying off! Doing it in an interactive way was what also helped me so much, as so many thoughtful members here were willing to offer encouragement to me as a "re-beginner" (which I still am) as my own process dragged out and seemed complicated and arcane!!

Now you want to be watching carefully for your "qualifying week" to begin. Here's what you do: Be sure to try and raise ammonia to 5ppm (its hard, but try to judge it just a small bit above 4ppm color if possible) and then see if both ammonia and nitrite can drop to zero in 12 hours or less. You've either got that now or should get it in the next couple days. Then once it really does that, you simply raise each day and watch it drop to zero for a whole week (or the better part of a week, if it can do it most of the week and then you want to use the weekend for your big change.) Then you have to be prepared with what subset of hardier fish you plan for your initial stocking and know that they are really available. Don't forget that the day you stop putting in ammonia, you will also have to do the big water change and get fish in there because the fish will then be the ammonia producers to feed the bacteria!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Miss Wiggle]

woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

wd is spot on with the above advice

 

[D3m]

ok, I will raise it up to 5ppm slowly I wasnt aware I had to do that but more good advice is always welcome

Regarding Fish to put into the tank, here is a list of what I was thinking about having in there when its fully stocked.

Panda Cory
Neon Tetra
Blue Dwarf Gourami
Guppy
Zebra Danio
Emerald Dwarf / Galaxy Rasbora
Clown Killifish (maybe)
Angel Fish (maybe)

I am open to suggestions though on other fish, but which ones of those and how many should I be putting in there once its cycled?