Air Pump Filter And Co2

[benthyer]

I am planning on running CO2 to my small tank as it is heavily planted and I want to get lots of good growth, especially for when I get shrimp.
 
But I have been thinking that running a Air Pump Filter won't work with CO2 as it would just gas off(?) the CO2.
 
Do I need to change to a mechanical filter instead if I was to go CO2?

 

[BaylorPerez]

from my experience with friends having a Co2 and O2 pump all they do is cycle through them, swapping each off every other hour or so. its a hassle but i think it may not even matter if your runing a Co2 and O2 pumps at the same time. as Co2 is for the plants and the fish(shrimp) would probally by hanging around both Co2 and O2 pumps. either way i would say your fine with running both pumps if you want to

 

[Byron]

There was a time when it was held that any surface disturbance such as that resulting from filters and bubbling air devices would drive out CO2 and bring in oxygen.  And this is basically correct.  More recently, some planted tank sources have been suggesting that this may not be quite as cut and dried, in that this disturbance may not drive out the CO2 as much as used to be thought.  I looked into this a while back, and frankly could find no reliable evidence on the exchange of oxygen/CO2 to counter the long-held belief.
 
When it comes to diffused CO2 being added, no one questions that this will be driven out by surface disturbance, and it is viewed as counter-productive.  We are talking day time here, meaning, when the tank lighting is on to drive photosynthesis.  At night, the CO2 must be turned off or the tank can easily become saturated with CO2 and this will seriously harm fish (and I would assume shrimp ?).
 
There is another aspect to this, and that is that CO2 will only be effective if the other nutrients are available (there are 17 essential plant nutrients in total), and the light is of sufficient intensity to drive photosynthesis to balance the nutrients (including CO2).
 
If this were me, I would not waste the effort and expense of CO2.  This is referred to as a small tank, and the water parameters can quickly become an issue, plus the benefit to plants might be negligible.
 
Byron.

 

[jag51186]

Any surface disturbance will gas off SOME CO2, but not all of it. Some of it will still be dissolved within your water column. Most people that are serious about planted aquariums end up using a canister filter, even in small tanks to reduce CO2 loss. There are some pump driven internal filters that would work with little surface disturbance as well (Eheim makes some). Some people that keep a heavy fish load while also injecting CO2, will actually aim to have surface disturbance to keep enough oxygen in the water for the fish. The downside to this is that you will run through more CO2 to keep the concentration where you need it.
 
Another option is to run your CO2 during the day, and then run an air pump only at night when the plants aren't respiring anymore. But, if you have the CO2 turned off about an hour before lights out, most of your CO2 will be used up before lights out anyway.
 
But, I also agree with Byron, in that you should only use CO2 if the other factors are in place to drive plant growth.

 

[benthyer]

At the moment I dose the tank with Liquid CO2 and ferts and my plants grow but really struggle. They look nothing like they did when I first got them.

Maybe it's something I'm doing wrong? I believe my light is sufficient but could be wrong.

Reason I thought about CO2 is because of all the tanks I see with amazing growth and I already have a CO2 extinguisher so only need the reg and solenoid to get things going. I was even considering running into two tanks at once.

 

[Byron]

At the moment I dose the tank with Liquid CO2 and ferts and my plants grow but really struggle. They look nothing like they did when I first got them.

Maybe it's something I'm doing wrong? I believe my light is sufficient but could be wrong.

Reason I thought about CO2 is because of all the tanks I see with amazing growth and I already have a CO2 extinguisher so only need the reg and solenoid to get things going. I was even considering running into two tanks at once.

 
While tanks with diffused CO2 do have amazing plant growth, there is also the higher light intensity and daily (usually) dosing of other nutrients.  There are also incredible planted tanks without CO2 and higher light.  These are two different approaches.  But whichever, or anything in between, it is all about the balance of light intensity and nutrient availability.  Each plant species has its specific light requirement, and thus nutrient needs to balance.
 
If you want to assess your present situation, some of us may be able to offer suggestions, but we will need to know the data and a photo would help as sometimes it is easier to see issues in a photo.  Knowing how long this tank has been running is important too.
 
Liquid CO2, if it is either Seachem's Flourish Excel or API's CO2 Booster, is glutaraldehyde and this will kill some plants outright.  I wouldn't even considering using this in a tank with fish.  I've written on this so much others will get tired of seeing it, so I will stop there.

 
Byron.

 

[benthyer]

Thanks for the help Byron.
 
I have a journal running at the momnt of the tank which you can see here http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/439080-shrimp-tank/
 
This will hopefully help provide with more information. When I purchased the plants I was told these would all be suitable.
 
For the Liquid CO2 I am using, I have EasyCarbo and also have from AquaEssentials ready for when the EasyCarbo runs out. However I may switch to the AE one as I have never heard of EasyCarbo before.

 

[Byron]

Thanks for the help Byron.
 
I have a journal running at the momnt of the tank which you can see here http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/439080-shrimp-tank/
 
This will hopefully help provide with more information. When I purchased the plants I was told these would all be suitable.
 
For the Liquid CO2 I am using, I have EasyCarbo and also have from AquaEssentials ready for when the EasyCarbo runs out. However I may switch to the AE one as I have never heard of EasyCarbo before.

 
OK, I read through the linked thread.  What light did you end up getting (I didn't see this)?  You were thinking of a desk lamp, which can certainly work for a "nano" type of aquarium, but I certainly would not mess with CO2 here.  For one thing, none of the plants mentioned over there will need it (the Cabomba if still in the picture might), but higher light would be needed, and a desk lamp will not provide this.  After 20+ years in this hobby, one thing I have learned is that the simpler we make it (thinking of the equipment) the easier it will be long-term, and likely more rewarding.

 

[benthyer]

I went with a clip light using this bulb 30W 6500K Day Light Energy Saving CFL Spiral Bulb BC B22 and have a foil tray over the top of the bulb working as a reflector.
 
When you say don't mess with CO2 does that even include liquid?
 
What can I do to help boost the plant growth? You can see that my plants are lacking from when i first received them.
 
I'll look at using the CO2 I have on my 115L, maybe do a whole rescape when I can I am desperate to change it to sand xD

 

[eaglesaquarium]

There's a balance between plant choices, light intensity/CO2/nutrients/photoperiod...
 
 
Any imbalance can cause trouble.  It could be that the plants you chose (forgive me, I didn't read your journal) may be in need of high light intensity, while the light bulb just can't meet their needs.  The key to remember is that light intensity decreases as the SQUARE of the distance... in other words, you lose 3/4 of the intensity of the light every time you double the distance to the bulb.  Also, remember that water itself will also greatly diminish the light intensity as well.  
A side note:
 
An air pump will actually replace CO2 in the water, as the CO2 in the air is dissolved in the water, just as the Oxygen is by surface agitation.  In the case of running CO2 and an air pump simultaneously, it is generally stated that the rate at which the CO2 is allowed to escape by the surface agitation exceeds the level that it is dissolved into the water.  
 
 
Also, running a CO2 system on a tank is a challenge, because you need to have a diffuser which creates tiny bubbles which will dissolve into the water BEFORE they reach the surface.   This can be a challenge to achieve, especially without the benefit of an external filter...
 
Running a CO2 system through an external filter (canister) can greatly streamline the efficiency of the system... as the CO2 can be drawn through the filter and be 'chopped up' through the canister, including the impeller, etc. 

 

[benthyer]

I'm currently doing more research now to see what I can do to help my plants regain some life and really kick out some growth, I seem to struggle in both tanks so want to get it sorted as I have the most pathetic looking swords at the moment.
 
If I set up CO2 on my 115L I will look at getting an external filter however I hae been looking at those atomisers which seem to work a lot more efficently than any other CO2 diffusion.
 
Does the 2W to every litre rule still have some truth to it? And what does this mean for the CFL bulb that I have which is 30W but equivalent to 150W. Would I base the 2W to every litre rule off the 30W or 150W?

 

[benthyer]

So I have been doing some more research and I think that the reason why my plants are struggling are probably due to the lack of nutrients. At the moment I does Neutro T but this only provides the trace elements and none of the the macro. This is probably why I see an initial good growth in my tanks with it eventually dying off due to all the macro nutrients being used up.
 
My next step now is to look at dry ferts or a "complete" fertiliser, however from what I have read dry ferts are a lot more cost effective it's just working out what dosages you need for your tank. That being said there doesn't seem to be any harm in adding more nutrients than you need as long as you skip a day of dosing every now and then and complete regular WC's.
 
The product I am looking at, at the moment is EI Ferts but was wandering if anyone else had any other reccomendations? 
 
Also one question I want to ask as I can't quite find an answer is do I still need to dose with Liquid CO2 if I am adding dry ferts or do they contain all of this?

 

[Byron]

You've touched on several issues since my last post, but I am also getting confused as there are references to the nano (the small) tank, and the larger, and questions on both together.  The other thing is that trying to assess data from different threads can be confusing.
 
So first off, can we limit our discussions to just the small tank?  And can you give us the tank dimensions and volume so we are all certain what we are discussing?  The linked bulb for instance is probably going to be too bright, but I am not sure now what we are talking about.
 
I can answer a couple of your more general questions, though...on the liquid CO2, forget it.  I can't remember if I mentioned in this thread about the toxicity of this stuff, but some brands at least are composed of glutaraldehyde which is a highly toxic disinfectant.  Some plants will be killed at normal recommended doses, and if overdosed it will kill plants, fish and bacteria.  I suspect it will be harmful to shrimp too.  Keep in mind that every substance added to the water in an aquarium will get inside the fish because of natural processes, either by osmosis through the cells or via the gills.  The less chemicals and additives, the better.  Some can be deadly alone, but many when used together can be equally deadly as there are reactions.
 
JD dealt well with the CO2 diffusion.  This is something you might consider for the larger tank, but we'll leave that for the present.  I suggest dealing with the smaller tank here.
 
You won't need CO2.  There is a fair bit of CO2 naturally produced, primarily in the substrate via the breakdown of organics by various bacteria.  The normal respiration of fish, plants and some types of bacteria also produce CO2 but this is minimal by comparison.  But once the tank is running for a spell, nature will sort all this out.  The key to success with a planted tank is to have the light intensity sufficient to balance the CO2 and drive photosynthesis.
 
[Edit, it occurred to me that I could attach a couple photos of my smallest tank which is a 10g, to illustrate the sort of plant growth that is realistic with no CO2, 1/4 tsp of a comprehensive fert once a week, and two 9w CFL bulbs.  The September photo is more recent, and this is not now a 'display' tank so it is a jumble of plants, because it is home to my colony of pygmy corys that spawn regularly and grow up in this environment, plus I do use it to grow out my Farlowella vitatta fry from time to time.  So I tend to let it just "go."  But the plant growth I think is good.]
 
You will likely need some fertilizer.  In so small a tank, forget the dry.  The complete liquids are much easier, and you use so little of them they are not particularly costly.  Now some background on nutrients.
 
Aquatic plants require 17 nutrients, and to some degree these need to be balanced among themselves.  Some nutrients if overdosed can cause plants to shut down assimilation of other nutrients, and algae can be a real problem.  Unlike higher plants, algae is not at all fussy about light or nutrients, so it is always waiting to take advantage of imbalances.  I tried to find data on the Neutro T you mention, but I can't find the ingredients and I would want to see this before recommending it or something else.  [Definitely avoid their so-called liquid CO2 as from what they do say I am fairly certain this is likely glutaraldehyde.]  But the Neutro T and/or Neutro+ might be OK if I can see what is in them.  They do recommend dosing a lot though, and this bothers me.
 
Byron.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

You will likely need some fertilizer.  In so small a tank, forget the dry.  The complete liquids are much easier, and you use so little of them they are not particularly costly.  Now some background on nutrients.

 
The only thing is that if both the large and the smaller tank are getting ferts, the dry are definitely the way to go, as it would add unnecessary cost to have both liquid and dry.  

 

[Byron]

 

You will likely need some fertilizer.  In so small a tank, forget the dry.  The complete liquids are much easier, and you use so little of them they are not particularly costly.  Now some background on nutrients.

 
The only thing is that if both the large and the smaller tank are getting ferts, the dry are definitely the way to go, as it would add unnecessary cost to have both liquid and dry.  
 

 
This is a very good point.  I readily acknowledge my inexperience with dry ferts, as I have never used them.  I have seven planted tanks in my fish room, and the liquids are still not expensive if you know where to get them and what you need.  Products like Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive for instance is highly concentrated, and even in a 55g you would likely not need more than 1/2 a teaspoon every week.  The other thing is that dry ferts are primarily macro-nutrients (NPK I believe, unless I am mistaken) and intended for high-tech systems where these are not going to be replenished naturally, and with low-tech systems it is the micro that usually need to be added, and not in large quantities.  And with reputable liquid preparations, one is getting everything that is necessary, and in balance.  My 2L jug of Flourish Comp has lasted me more than 2 years and is still not empty.