Advice On Correcting Water Conditions Would Be Much Appreciated

[EmmaNic286]

This is basically a continuation of the other thread on this I recently made here: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/340935-unexpected-fish-death-need-advice/

I would have normally included this post in it but it occurred to me that maybe here would be the better place to post my questions.

1. Water parameters. (ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, PH, temp', Hardness etc)

Right now my water testing is showing the Nitrate to be 80, the Nitrite to be 0, The GH to be 180, The KH to be 240 and the PH to be 8.0. Unfortunately I don't yet have a test kit that tests for ammonia so don't have a clue yet on what that is. I ordered one last week online, but found out unexpectedly after there was a long delay with it arriving. A member of my family did get another test kit, but unfortunately not a master one - so it doesn't quite test for everything. Going to be seeing tomorrow if a local aquarium store does ammonia testing kits, but frustratingly in the meantime I have no way of finding out.

2. A full description of the fishes symptoms.

One Black Skirt tetra hasn't long died. The other single remaining one is showing signs of seeming stressed and shy. It's also never seemed to have much of an appetite since my family took the aquarium from it's previous owner in emergency circumstances around 3 months ago. This was also the case with the other tetra before Am very concerned the chances of it soon following the other are high. And although the plecostomus's behaviour in general seems to be much better - I'm still very concerned that the current water conditions are affecting him unhealthily too.

3. How often you do water changes and how much.

Generally around 25% once a week.

4. Any chemicals and treatments you add to the water.

Treat tap water with Aqua Safe - before adding it as new aquarium water after doing water changes. Early this afternoon also added Easy Balance and Safe Start as a temporary short term attempt to counter Nitrate and possible Ammonia problems - till my family can get a new filter for the tank. I'm not sure that so far it's helped, but unfortunatley at the time wasn't in a position to do much else

5. What tank mates are in the tank.

A single Black Skirt tetra and one Plecostomus.

6. Tank size.

It's around one foot and a quarter height wise and about one foot width wise.

7. Finally Have you recently added any new fish?

Not at this stage. My parents plan is to soon add more tetra's into the small tank - as we're all aware that it's best they be kept in a group of at least around 5 or so - after a new tank for the Plecostomus arrives (as we know he should not really be in a small tank - even though at present he's still quite small). But for now it's just the 2 surviving inhabitants - out of the original 3 - that came with the tank when the aquarium was given away to us.

Extra note

Unfortunately I can't upload pictures onto my laptop right now so can't include one here. Also we have no no filter at present. Plans are in place to get hold of one, but unfortunately I don't think this is going to be possible right away.

Some Further Info

To recap, before last Wednesday we had two Black Skirt tetra's. But on that day the slightly smaller one suddenly died right out of the blue. As my parents never ended up buying a master test kit - though I did my best to persuade them to when they first got the fish - I immediately suspected serious problems with the water. As soon as I could I ordered an API master kit. But unfortunately found out just before last weekend it's going to be at least another 7 days - if not longer - before I can expect to receive it. Luckily my parents were able to get another one over the weekend that tested for GH, KH, PH, Nitrite and Nitrate. Though annoyingly not for Ammonia. Still from using it we were able to get the water parametre info that I included above. I am planning on visiting a local Aquarium store tomorrow to see if I can get hold of an Ammonia testing kit - but in the meantime today (when at a different local fish shop) purchased some Safe start and added it as apparently it's supposed to help keep Ammonia levels down. I also purchased and added some Easy Balance in an attmept to help reduce the Nitrate level - although later this evening when I last tested the water the results annoyingly showed no sign of any improvement in that area.

Still, to get to the point, I realise action needs to be taken ASAP as a matter of urgency to correct the GH, KH, PH and Nitrate problems. And if later it turns out there's any ammonia in the water further action will need to be taken to correct that too. But right now am confused as to where next to start! Advice that came with the test kit my parents got advised getting an API tap water filter. But I dont know of any fish stores local to where I live that sell them. I guess ordering online is always an option. But so far I've not had much luck in finding a site supplier that states anything about a quick delivery service - and on top of that there's the problem of it not always being obvious if such sites are trustworthy or not. Other than that I know PH Down/Up is apparently good at correcting PH water levels. And that API Nitra Zorb is also apparently good for correcting Nitrate problems. A bit concerned though that these products might not be as good as they sound - as have read sometimes bottle products don't live up to their reputation. So am unsure as to whether or not I should get them.

If anyone has any advice they can give on any of this, or has any further general advice to give on dealing with the situation I've not already thought of - would be very grateful to hear your thoughts!

Many thanks for reading. Is really appreciated.

Emma

 

[EmmaNic286]

Have more info! After reading through various posts in other threads on here since my last post decided it might be an idea to directly test the GH, KH, PH, Nitrite and Nitrate levels in my tap water. The results are exactly the same as when I tested the aquarium water today. I'm not going to be sure on the Ammonia till at least by tomorrow. But this is telling me that otherwise these readings are down to how the tap water already is - rather than it being down to anything happening in the tank in relation to the fish.

I'm feeling seriously confused now as to what to do next for the best. Can anybody help at all?

 

[Sami9999]

I am still new to tropical fish but have keep and breed goldfish and koi for years. You do not need to add anything to remove nitrate and the biological filter will not remove it either. Nitrate is removed with water changes. My understanding with tropical fish is that it is not good to add the ph up and down products but better to keep the ph stable. Ph can be lowered by adding bogwood to your tank I believe. If you are set on keeping tetras and have hard water you can buy RO water which will decrease the kh and gh. Otherwise I would research fish that like hard water such as livebearers and cichlids. Someone with more experience may come along and correct me though.

 

[EmmaNic286]

Thanks for your response Sami999 highly appreciated!

I realise you're right on the Nitrate thing. Thanks for the mention. I used Easy Balance yesterday just a temporary short term attempt to counter the problem - as we don't yet have a tank or tap water filter. But thinking at this point maybe I should just stop bothering with that and focus on trying hard to get hold of a tap water filter relatively fast for now. Till I get one, unfortunately I strongly doubt any water changes are going to make any difference with reducing Nitrate because of the amount of Nitrate that already exists in our tap water to start with. I tested the amount last night directly from the tap water - and it's no different to what test results have been showing Nitrate levels as being in the tank water. Still, after I've gotten one and can start adding filtered water - then most definitely I will be doing changes till it's down at the right level. Unfortunately not knowing how to get hold of an API tap water filter to begin with is what's proving to be the major obstacle here.

Thanks for the advice on the PH. Agreeing at this point it's probably best to leave it alone. I read some further stuff on PH down and up and really didn't like the sound of alot of it. Sounds to me like it's really not too good as a product after all. Hopefully once the KH is sorted there'll be improvements there anyway. Will see how things go there.

By the way is RO water suitable for tropical freshwater aquariums then? (thanks for the mention there too). I was under the impression this was used for sea water aqariums. But maybe this wasn't totally accurate on my part.

 

[Sami9999]

Ro water is used for soft water tanks such as discus and tetras in tropical freshwater tanks. If you have high nitrates in your tap water try adding live plants to your tank to help keep the nitrates down.

Edit: Here is an Ebay link for an api tap water filter http/shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3872.m570.l1313&_nkw=api+tap+water+filter&_sacat=See-All-Categories

 

[the biffster]

do you have a filter in your tank
how many liter is the tank
what size is the plec

 

[EmmaNic286]

@ Sammi9999 many thanks for confirming all that. Will be sure to bear that all in mind.

@ The Biffster - We don't have a filter at present. It's a bit of a long complicated story. I'm going to try my best to get hold of one as soon as possible this week though, after I've done some needed research to find out what would be the most suitable kind.

Afraid I'm really not sure of the size of the tank in terms of litre's. I can only say that it's around 1 feet and a quarter high and around 1 feet across. Hope that's of some help! Also afraid I'm not sure of the exact size of the Pleco. Luckily, this isn't too much of an issue right now though, as we're going to be moving him into a new tank pretty soon. It's the water conditions within the one tank we have right now are the problem.

 

[coldcazzie]

Hi Emma,
I haven't read through your other thread, but will give you my thoughts based on the information you've provided above.

I don't understand why you think you need a tap water filter? As long as the water you add to the tank is dechlorinated and roughly temperature matched with your hand then I'd just stick to using the water that comes out of your tap. Yes, your water is harder than some and the pH is high, but this just means you should be careful when choosing the fish that are suitable for your tank. Personally, I wouldn't consider the hardness or the pH to be problems, and would instead try to tailor the tank around fish that like those conditions. You should also keep in mind that any local shops will have the same water supply, and so any fish sold there will already be used to the water, especially if you find locally bred ones. I don't think it's quite as big a problem as you think it is!

As it currently stands, the size of the tank is much more likely to limit the fish you can have rather than the hardness - it does not sound like a big tank at all. How big would you say it is from front to back? 12x15 inches is not much use on it's own - tanks are 3 dimensional so we'd need all three measurements to be able to give an estimate as to water volume. It'd fairly easy to work out by yourself. Once you've measured the lengths of the sides of tha tank you can work it out using the calculator at the top of the forum, or even using your mobile phone - most of those have a conversion thingy which you can use to work it out. (eg: 12x12x12 inches = 1728 cubic inches, which in litres is ~27.5 and US gallons is ~7.5)

If you have no filter then getting one is a matter of urgency. For a small tank the size you are suggesting an internal filter would do you just fine - you could probably pick up a Fluval for less than £30 in your local fish shop. This will provide the best place for the bacteria responsible for the nitrogen cycle to colonise.

Don't worry yourself about the nitrate - 80ppm is not very high, although I agree that it is higher than what most fishkeepers aim for. If that is what comes out of your tap, then I'd say you should consider 80ppm to be your 0, and aim to keep it as close to 80 as possible, if you see what I mean? Certainly at this point, an 80ppm nitrate reading is the least of your problems!!

Personally I would do daily water changes on the tank (as large as possible), and get a filter this afternoon if you can. Then continue with the daily water changes until you get the ammonia kit, then test, and reassess the situation based on the test results.

 

[EmmaNic286]

Hi there Cazzie, thanks alot for your response too - sincerely appreciated:

I don't understand why you think you need a tap water filter? As long as the water you add to the tank is dechlorinated and roughly temperature matched with your hand then I'd just stick to using the water that comes out of your tap. Yes, your water is harder than some and the pH is high, but this just means you should be careful when choosing the fish that are suitable for your tank. Personally, I wouldn't consider the hardness or the pH to be problems, and would instead try to tailor the tank around fish that like those conditions. You should also keep in mind that any local shops will have the same water supply, and so any fish sold there will already be used to the water, especially if you find locally bred ones. I don't think it's quite as big a problem as you think it is!

Unfortunately, in regards to being careful before choosing fish - it's a little late. You see, we didn't actually choose/purchase the aquarium or any of what's in it right now (other than the filter we got set up in it yesterday) - fish included. We received it from somebody my mother knows about 3 months ago in neglected conditions who didn't know what else to do with them. What we've been trying to do since is care for them as best we can despite the situation - but sadly because we're beginners (and some of the advice we got from others at the time of first getting them was incorrect) mistakes have been made along the way - which I believe is probably why one of the Tetra's has just died. As a result we're all doing what we can to ensure the remaining fish survive right now.

According to the information leaflet that came with the current test kit we've got at home - our type of fish which - being a Black Skirt tetra and Plecostomus - would be tropical community fish aren't at all suited to the current levels of those water stats. They need to be lower as otherwise can cause stressful conditions for the fish. One of the books we have on tropical fish also confirms that with water hardness if this is too high for specific fish then it needs to be softened. Also what's recommended in the leaflet on reducing both water hardness and high Nitrate levels from the tap is using an API Water Filter so it makes the water for the fish better. This was why I was so anxious to get one. Since my last post I've ordered one. As want to do everything possible to make sure the remaining fish are as comfortable as possible - especially as in particular I'm very concerned about the remaining Tetra right now.

As it currently stands, the size of the tank is much more likely to limit the fish you can have rather than the hardness - it does not sound like a big tank at all. How big would you say it is from front to back? 12x15 inches is not much use on it's own - tanks are 3 dimensional so we'd need all three measurements to be able to give an estimate as to water volume. It'd fairly easy to work out by yourself. Once you've measured the lengths of the sides of tha tank you can work it out using the calculator at the top of the forum, or even using your mobile phone - most of those have a conversion thingy which you can use to work it out. (eg: 12x12x12 inches = 1728 cubic inches, which in litres is ~27.5 and US gallons is ~7.5)

I will do that, many thanks for pointing all that out! That is really helpful to know.

If you have no filter then getting one is a matter of urgency. For a small tank the size you are suggesting an internal filter would do you just fine - you could probably pick up a Fluval for less than £30 in your local fish shop. This will provide the best place for the bacteria responsible for the nitrogen cycle to colonise. Personally I would do daily water changes on the tank (as large as possible), and get a filter this afternoon if you can. Then continue with the daily water changes until you get the ammonia kit, then test, and reassess the situation based on the test results.

Thanks for the mentions on this too! Am glad to say I was able to get an internal filter yesterday which is now set up and running! Will definitely be continuing to do increased regular water changes too. And I also should be finally receiving my master test kit this evening - so will be sure to test the ammonia as soon as I have as a matter of urgency!

 

[stoneagedinosaur]

When you say plecostomus - which species?
Great if it's a bristlenose... most others are going to outgrow your tank pretty quick!

As you have just got your filter you are now in a 'fish-in' cycle. I think in my signature there is a link to fish in cycling. Hopefully the filter will answer your woes but it may take a while. Keep going with the water changes and well done for listening to some sound advice.

Keep us posted and good luck

 

[BigIan]

Well nsounds like you`ve just got your self on your feet. May i suggest you read this link to fish in cycleing

as for a booklet from api telling you you need to buy more api stuff its nonsence.

Fish keeping has taken leaps and bounds forwards in the past decade with things such as fishless cycleing becoming the norm rather than fish in cycleing, and the tecnology available to us. as well as mass breeding projects for fish rather than wild caughrt fish has ment that fish are a lot hardyer and less sensitive than they were back in the 70`s and 80`s, (when alot of fishkeeping books were written.)
so don`t believe every thing you read. that includes on here.

 

[EmmaNic286]

Hi there Stoneage Dinosaur - I'm not too sure on the specific species of the Plecostomus. From pictures I've seen it looks like a Bristlenose but I'm not sure. At any rate though, we're going to be moving him into a different bigger tank as my mother recently sought advice from one of the 2 local fish shops we know and was advised to do so. Many thanks for the pointer on the cycling info - will definitely be sure to check that out!

@ Biglan

Well nsounds like you`ve just got your self on your feet. May i suggest you read this link to fish in cycleing

as for a booklet from api telling you you need to buy more api stuff its nonsence.

Fish keeping has taken leaps and bounds forwards in the past decade with things such as fishless cycleing becoming the norm rather than fish in cycleing, and the tecnology available to us. as well as mass breeding projects for fish rather than wild caughrt fish has ment that fish are a lot hardyer and less sensitive than they were back in the 70`s and 80`s, (when alot of fishkeeping books were written.)
so don`t believe every thing you read. that includes on here.

Many thanks to you also for the cycling pointer. That's really helpful to know.

Is there any particular reason why you think getting hold of an API tap water filter is nonsense? That's if you don't mind sharing. At this point, I've no idea how that could be - but appreciate you must have your reasons for having that opinion. I'd very interested to hear them!

Anyways - my master kit arrived late this afternoon in the end! I tested the water as soon as it arrived. The ammonia levels showed up as being very high! This tells me that that it's extremely likely this is why the other fish died - or at the least played a major part in why. I'd already done one water change today (around 25%) but decided to immediately do another big one as soon as I found this out. It was a little over 50%. Since I re-tested the water - so far the results have come back that now there's no ammonia. I'm going to test it again tomorrow though just to keep an eye on things. If again, there's anything over an extremely low amount - will definitley be doing another water change and will keep on doing them daily till the cycling process has reached the stage where the filter bacteria can start breaking the levels down. Hopefully this will help at least in great part - even if it isn't enough to 100% do so.

 

[coldcazzie]

Hi there Stoneage Dinosaur - I'm not too sure on the specific species of the Plecostomus. From pictures I've seen it looks like a Bristlenose but I'm not sure. At any rate though, we're going to be moving him into a different bigger tank as my mother recently sought advice from one of the 2 local fish shops we know and was advised to do so. Many thanks for the pointer on the cycling info - will definitely be sure to check that out!

@ Biglan

Well nsounds like you`ve just got your self on your feet. May i suggest you read this link to fish in cycleing

as for a booklet from api telling you you need to buy more api stuff its nonsence.

Fish keeping has taken leaps and bounds forwards in the past decade with things such as fishless cycleing becoming the norm rather than fish in cycleing, and the tecnology available to us. as well as mass breeding projects for fish rather than wild caughrt fish has ment that fish are a lot hardyer and less sensitive than they were back in the 70`s and 80`s, (when alot of fishkeeping books were written.)
so don`t believe every thing you read. that includes on here.

Many thanks to you also for the cycling pointer. That's really helpful to know.

Is there any particular reason why you think getting hold of an API tap water filter is nonsense? That's if you don't mind sharing. At this point, I've no idea how that could be - but appreciate you must have your reasons for having that opinion. I'd very interested to hear them!

Anyways - my master kit arrived late this afternoon in the end! I tested the water as soon as it arrived. The ammonia levels showed up as being very high! This tells me that that it's extremely likely this is why the other fish died - or at the least played a major part in why. I'd already done one water change today (around 25%) but decided to immediately do another big one as soon as I found this out. It was a little over 50%. Since I re-tested the water - so far the results have come back that now there's no ammonia. I'm going to test it again tomorrow though just to keep an eye on things. If again, there's anything over an extremely low amount - will definitley be doing another water change and will keep on doing them daily till the cycling process has reached the stage where the filter bacteria can start breaking the levels down. Hopefully this will help at least in great part - even if it isn't enough to 100% do so.

My opinion is that it sounds (just from the name of it) like a complete waste of money!!

Shoot me for saying it if you want but there is a lot of stuff out there that is said to be "essential", when in fact you could do just as well with something homemade, or even nothing at all. Look at all the things you supposedly "must have" when you have a baby - rocking cribs, moses baskets, all singing all dancing toys, expensive prams etc etc, when in fact the most basic things do just fine - a bed to share, a homemade sling and an adults face it's the same with every aspect of life, and fishkeeping is no different.

My opinion would be that the fish are much more likely to be stressed due to high ammonia, a very small tank and (in the case of the tetra, which is after all a shoaling fish) no friends! And, if they have been in water of a certain hardness for this long, and then you start trying to adjust it by filtering tap water or adding RO or any chemicals then that may be the straw that breaks the camels back, as it were. Not definitely, but could be. PLus it's one more thing to worry about, when fish are supposed to be relaxing!

Oh, and about the choosing appropriate fish - I didn't mean it to sound as though I were blaming you for the fish you have currently - I realise you have been landed with whatever fish came with the tank. What I meant was, in the future you could try to purchase either locally bredd fish which are used to the local water parameters, or choose fish that like higher pHs, such as livebearers, shelldwellers or Malawi cichlids (if I recall correctly). If it came across as blaming you then I'm sorry - wasn't meant to

 

[EmmaNic286]

My opinion is that it sounds (just from the name of it) like a complete waste of money!!

Shoot me for saying it if you want but there is a lot of stuff out there that is said to be "essential", when in fact you could do just as well with something homemade, or even nothing at all. Look at all the things you supposedly "must have" when you have a baby - rocking cribs, moses baskets, all singing all dancing toys, expensive prams etc etc, when in fact the most basic things do just fine - a bed to share, a homemade sling and an adults face it's the same with every aspect of life, and fishkeeping is no different.

My opinion would be that the fish are much more likely to be stressed due to high ammonia, a very small tank and (in the case of the tetra, which is after all a shoaling fish) no friends! And, if they have been in water of a certain hardness for this long, and then you start trying to adjust it by filtering tap water or adding RO or any chemicals then that may be the straw that breaks the camels back, as it were. Not definitely, but could be. PLus it's one more thing to worry about, when fish are supposed to be relaxing!

Again thanks for sharing your thoughts Coldcazzie. Can appreciate where you're coming from, though at this stage am still feeling it's best to go ahead and see if purchasing the tap filter and using it helps.
Though from what you've said, think what I'll do is wait to see if the tetra has perked up more and when (hopefully) it does will start adding the tap filtered water gradually (rather than in huge amounts all at once) through small water changes so it's not too much of a shock to the fish and just see how things go. If they seem like they're getting worse as a result of me beginning to do this then I'll stop with it.

Oh, and about the choosing appropriate fish - I didn't mean it to sound as though I were blaming you for the fish you have currently - I realise you have been landed with whatever fish came with the tank. What I meant was, in the future you could try to purchase either locally bredd fish which are used to the local water parameters, or choose fish that like higher pHs, such as livebearers, shelldwellers or Malawi cichlids (if I recall correctly). If it came across as blaming you then I'm sorry - wasn't meant to

Oh, not at all! Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I thought at the time you were just advising me on how to approach getting new fish and might have missed some of what I wrote about the current situation with the fish we have already. But in turn I obviously misunderstood! Thanks by the way for those tips - when we eventually get more fish will definitely ensure we bear that all in mind for next time. I most definitely don't want to be in the position of going through all this again with any more - so will definitely be doing all I can to make sure we don't have a repeat experience. Many thanks again!

 

[EmmaNic286]

By the way everyone (sorry to keep on posting questions in here, hopefully this will be the last one I need to ask) just wondered if anybody knew exactly how to diagnose water poisoning damage to fish (caused by Ammonia, Nitrate etc) and if so if they might also know the best way to go about treating it - other than through bottled products.

Many thanks again for reading!