Ada Substrate Ferts .... Worth The Cost?

[craynerd]

Hi Guys,

I was just about to order my ADA amazonia soil and substrate ferts from AE when i thought about the need for them. It is a heck of a lot of money to spend when i dont even know what they are, all as i know is that they are apparently effective. But what are they?

It seems a little like black magic to me, mix tourmaline with powersand and you get a special fantastic substrate....are they trace elements, NPK compunds, or niether are they just a good holder of nutrients...

Anyone got any more info on this products before i buy them.

Chris

Edit...in no rush anyway..AE are sold out of tourmaline.

Chris

 

[phlawed]

Hi Guys,

I was just about to order my ADA amazonia soil and substrate ferts from AE when i thought about the need for them. It is a heck of a lot of money to spend when i dont even know what they are, all as i know is that they are apparently effective. But what are they?

It seems a little like black magic to me, mix tourmaline with powersand and you get a special fantastic substrate....are they trace elements, NPK compunds, or niether are they just a good holder of nutrients...

Anyone got any more info on this products before i buy them.

Chris

Edit...in no rush anyway..AE are sold out of tourmaline.

Chris

eco-complete? it has worked great for me

 

[zig]

Are they worth the money?...........yes...........but i would only buy the soil, i would forget about the powersand et al, apperantly the powerdsand doesn't really add any benifit over the normal soil, although Tagashi would probably tell you it adds "Power" but im not sure thats any benifit in planted tanks.

 

[George Farmer]

Tom Barr has run experiments with 100% Aqua Soil versus Aqua Soil + Power Sand. According to him there's no difference in growth rates, condition etc. It has been the subject of much debate with big names like Jeff Senke joining in.

Of course ADA will suggest you buy the whole system and purists will happily spend the extra cash.

I'm going for 100% AS in my new setup for three reasons. I don't want to spend anymore cash than necessary and I don't like substrate migration due to root growth and maintenance. Obviously a 100% substrate does not have migration issues. Finally it is regarded by many as the best substrate around at the moment.

A word of caution with AS - it affects water chemistry as fair bit, especially with v. soft water. It also dissolves very slowly so changing the substrate every 12 months or so will be necessary. This isn't as bad as it sounds as substrates in a high-growth setup will become sour with high oxygen depletion rates resulting in lower growth rates and potential algae issues. So changing the substrate is a good thing and it also gives you the opportunity to implement any new aquascaping ideas.

 

[craynerd]

I am very glad i asked the question now. I will not waste the £35 extra then at least this setup.

George, thanks for the warning. I think you told me previously that it will need replacing after 12 months or so. This is no problem since i will be looking to re do the tank about every 6-12 months to try out new ideas and new designs.

We`ll, i may place my order...the only thing i am confused about now is lighting! Then i am all setup ready!

Chris

 

[oldwhitewood]

There is something to be said for the aquasoil/powersand combo. I have used this on one of my tanks and found it great. For the sake of a few layers of powersand special and tourmaline I would rather have the piece of mind of having both types of substrate in my tank. I don't know really the in's and out's but if I can get close to an ADA system then I will do. A lot of us are starting to use sand now as a substrate as it takes away the pressure of having to maintain tricky foreground plants and looks more modern. I must say I concurr with this and the big advantage is it doesn't use up as much aquasoil so saves you money and looks great too.

I would steer away from the africana soil unless your layout means you wont see much of the substrate, it's very red and not to my taste, I ended up getting the amazonia and was much happier with the apparence, looks awesome. The malaya also looks pretty cool too.

I had a lot of success with a heater cable (boo hiss), eco complete and normal hagen gravel you know? This was my last setup in my 125, I used EI too and the tank flourished. So there are more ways to skin a cat than I first thought. However I'd now only use ADA substrates in any tank I setup for a few reasons. Cost wise it is about the same as using similar products, it looks wonderful, it is very easy to work with and grips the roots of plants very well, and plants that like to root such as glosso or echinodorus species really take to it and spread quickly. AND of course it's ADA so rude not to really seeing as though we can buy it in this country!

 

[craynerd]

oldwhite, sorry mate. I ment amazonia!!

Hummm, it is nice for piece of mind but at £35 it aint cheap especially with people testing it and saying nothing special happens!!

After getting my ADA diffuser setup today i have to say i have no real reason to doubt anything ADA produce...you arfe quite right, i may just go with it !!

 

[oldwhitewood]

I would say it hasn't been tested enough to be able to gauge how effective it is as a substrate system. Maybe Tom has grown only certain plants, has he tried it will different types of plants? Has he tried in with different types of setups etc? Everything that ADA produce is extremely well thought out and designed, you can bet they have been thinking about their products on a very high level, and have covered a lot of bases we haven't even considered yet. They have some concepts such as the 8000k lighting and polcher energy system filter thingy that aren't even understood by us let alone tested. Take the 8000k lighting, we are really only just starting to accept the 6500k daylight type lighting as being the defacto standard for a planted setup. ADA however have taken it further and use 8000k MH lights for example, so they're ahead of the game there. It's incredibly hard to get anything in 8000k at the moment, OSRAM have just brought out a tube but not even in T5 form yet and certainly not geared towards aquaria only commercial applications. It's a different market out there in Japan, but part of the fun of this whole thing is for us to get these products and start using them day to day and sharing our experiences of such.

 

[zig]

You can bet Tom Barr has tested the powersand extensively, and if it had major benefits and was worth buying he would say so, he is a major advocate of ADA soils and regularily gives them a plug in the many posts he makes on the various dedicated planted forums.

He has quite a simple alternative to the powersand, just add a sprinkling of peat and some fish mulm (waste) beneath the aquasoil and this will act as an activator and help the maturing process of the substrate, simple as that.

 

[George Farmer]

I would say it hasn't been tested enough to be able to gauge how effective it is as a substrate system. Maybe Tom has grown only certain plants, has he tried it will different types of plants? Has he tried in with different types of setups etc? Everything that ADA produce is extremely well thought out and designed, you can bet they have been thinking about their products on a very high level, and have covered a lot of bases we haven't even considered yet. They have some concepts such as the 8000k lighting and polcher energy system filter thingy that aren't even understood by us let alone tested. Take the 8000k lighting, we are really only just starting to accept the 6500k daylight type lighting as being the defacto standard for a planted setup. ADA however have taken it further and use 8000k MH lights for example, so they're ahead of the game there. It's incredibly hard to get anything in 8000k at the moment, OSRAM have just brought out a tube but not even in T5 form yet and certainly not geared towards aquaria only commercial applications. It's a different market out there in Japan, but part of the fun of this whole thing is for us to get these products and start using them day to day and sharing our experiences of such.

You are justified in questioning Tom's results Neil and I understand the desire to go for the complete ADA substrate system. My main issues are cost and migration and he does put forward a very convincing arguement, in fact I do not know of anyone who has "beaten" Mr. Barr in a debate and I believe his experiments are thorough. He is verging on the intimidating with his way with words sometimes but I believe he has the hobbyists' interest at heart for the main part. He does little for the retailer though and may have questionable long-term effect on the hobby IMHO. This said his pioneering EI work must have boosted sales for dry ferts no-end, even if some are bought from non-aquatic outlet sources. It's a complex arguement.

On the 8000K issue it's worth remembering that one manufacturer's 8000K may have a different actual spectral output to another. I have 6500K Interpet Daylight Plus and 6500K Sylvannia Activa 172 but they give a visibly very different hue and rendering quality. So it's safe to assume that ADA's 8000K will be different from another make - Jeff Senke himself mentioned this on APC recently.

I've not heard of the "polcher energy system". Off to google now!

zig - does the peat/mulm actually replace the actions of the Powersand or does it perform in addition too?

 

[zig]

zig - does the peat/mulm actually replace the actions of the Powersand or does it perform in addition too?

George as far as i know the powersand auctually contains peat, the peat and fish waste method that Tom Barr advocates just helps kick start the bacterial colonies which are benefical to all planted substrates, as far as i know this is the case anyway, so they would appear to be similar, although the powersand claims to add circulation to the substrate also because its made up of a porus volcanic rock of some sort, i would say this is where things get debatable.

 

[oldwhitewood]

You guys! I will tell you exactly what happens, you add the tourmaline BC, then a layer of powersand, then your aquasoil, add water......at this point some kind of witchcraft happens and the substrate makes the plants grow really good. *coughs* I'll get my coat.

Seriously though I have just thought of something, say you leave out the powersand right and instead go for a load of aquasoil instead, for the amount of powersand you actually use must work out about the same as using aquasoil in its place. So if you are filling up a certain amount of aquasoil to give you a required depth you are substituting the powersand for aquasoil.....you may as well just add the powersand anyway!

 

[zig]

haha.......eh........no........you may as well just add the Aquasoil because its cheaper!!

Aquasoil @ £25.99 for 9 liters = £2.89 per liter

Powersand @ £17.99 for 2 liters = £8.99 per liter

 

[Themuleous]

Interesting debate guys, I know nothing about ADA soils apart from they are the muts nuts, so been interesting to read your thoughts on them.

I've not heard of the "polcher energy system". Off to google now!

Can you let us know what you find out? thanks George

Sam

 

[George Farmer]

zig - does the peat/mulm actually replace the actions of the Powersand or does it perform in addition too?

George as far as i know the powersand auctually contains peat, the peat and fish waste method that Tom Barr advocates just helps kick start the bacterial colonies which are benefical to all planted substrates, as far as i know this is the case anyway, so they would appear to be similar, although the powersand claims to add circulation to the substrate also because its made up of a porus volcanic rock of some sort, i would say this is where things get debatable.

Sounds good. So if I mature my filter, add plenty of mulm etc. then it's feasable that I could get away with planting a decent proportion of demanding, slower growers from the outset.