A rant

[The-Wolf]

Why on earth do people insist on trying to keep coldwater,
subtropical and tropical fish together.

For instance people want to put danios and WCMM (which are classified as sub-tropical fish) in with goldfish(coldwater fish).
Yes danios and WCMM are used, in the wild, to winter snow melts in the streams, rivers etc, that they come from; but they are also from tropical countries which means they are also used to tropical water tempeatures too.

Goldfish can take tropical temperatures however this increases their metabolisum thus increasing their waste production, lowering their immune system and shortening their lifespan. Additionally goldfish, when big enough, will view WCMMs,
and danios (to a lesser extent) as food.

in short these species have different requirements and therefore need different set-ups. Or to put it into plain English
They are incompattible!

 

[Weaver]

I would guess that the reason people think that its ok to keep wcmm and zebras with goldfish is that they see it all the time in petshops
Not suprisingly very few would rush home to read up on the lifestyle of the wcmm.
I always had wcmm in with my goldfish because I didnt know any better and they added a bit of variety to the tank
The only question that now springs to mind is that if wcmm are sub-tropical then is it equally bad to keep them in a tropical set up ?

 

[The-Wolf]

The only question that now springs to mind is that if wcmm are sub-tropical then is it equally bad to keep them in a tropical set up ?

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in short yes.

Sorry for the rant but it irks me sometimes and I felt the need to vent.

 

[black angel]

I keep my minnows at 80f and they are fine. I also kept them with fancy goldfish at around 70f.
I would say no to keeping them with goldfish but if you only have one fancy goldie then i dont see the problem. It helps the fancy to feel secure in his tank and he has something to interact with.

 

[Dawney G]

I have 4 goldfish with parrot fish, siver dollars, a plec and gouramis.
The bloke who i got the tank off had them passed down to him and he had them for 3 years befor passing them down to me. I would say mine are pretty healthy and very happy.
xx
dawney g

 

[Ethos]

How buig is your tank?
Please say bigger than a 55 Gallon....

 

[jimbooo]

i agree with you wolf on the goldfish with tropicals thing.

would you keep a lizard and a hedgehog in the same pen after all? i think not.

in my opinion all pets wether fish, dogs, reptiles etc are actually wild animals. if we (as a human race) insist on removing these animals from their natural habitat and caging them up for our own pleasure then we should at least put them in as close to their natural surroundings as possible.

lets turn this around, say in the year 2546 there was another dominant species on the planet that decided it wanted to keep humans as pets. then housed us naked in a pen at 10 degrees or at 40 degrees.

i'm sure we'd live through it but wouldn't exactly be too chuffed at the whole thing.

the next thing that gets me is when (sorry Dawny G, this isn't specifically directed at you) people with such tanks say theyre all fine, happy and healthy.

okay theyre alive but how on earth do you know they are happy? have they told you so? fish will swim about and eat food weather theyre having the time of their lives or not, it's only at the "too late" point that you will be aware they are having difficulties.

i'll shut up now, got it off my chest....

anyway the reason i was actually replying was this.

Wolf - i have 6 WCMM's in my 40G (sig tank) temp is 25.5, will this be okay for them or too hot? i thought up to 26 was okay but you've got me doubting myself now.

 

[rdd1952]

I will say that goldfish are very adaptive. They probably do much better in a tropical tank than tropicals or subtropicals would do in a coldwater tank. When you think of goldfish, you more often think of ponds. Here in NC, if you keep goldfish in a pond (my dad has had one for almost 40 years, my pond is 10 years old), they are in water that probably ranges from the 30 to 40 degree temps in the winter to upper 80s to low 90s in the summer. In the 10 years I've had my pond, I have only lost a few fish and those were because my pump went out on me in the dead of summer while I was gone for the weekend.

Are they really happy? Who knows. It's hard to tell what fish are thinking. To me, I generally equate healthy to happy. If fish are healthy, no disease and stress, I think they are happy. Disease is a sign of stress and stress tends to lower the happiness ration even in humans. I know I'm sure not very happy when something happens at work that streses me out. To summarize, goldfish will probably work in a tropical tank at 78 degrees (size is a totally different issue) but tropicals and subs won't work very well in coldwater.

Edit: When I say ponds, I'm not talking about a tiny 50 to 100 gallon, plastic molded pond. I'm talking about a large pond, at least 1500 gallon.

 

[RandomWiktor]

I agree that it is not appropriate to keep fish that have different needs together. Not just temperature. I am sick of people keeping fish who need different salinity, pH, cover, light conditions, etc. because they "look good" together in the tank. And, as jimboo said, just because the fish aren't dying right away doesn't mean that they are "happy and healthy;" anything that is not ideal should be avoided as much as possible, as it can cause long term stress and thus, eventually a shortened lifespan. No, we can not provide truly ideal conditions for our fish, short of letting them back loose into thier native habitats, but temperature of all things seems like the easiest to provide.

Frankly, I'm not keen on mixing goldfish with much of anything; commons grow fast, are agressive eaters, nip fins, and produce a ton of waste. Many fancies are so friggen deformed by thier eyes and finnage that they have trouble defending themselves against faster, agressive fish such as tropicals. Goldfish like the company of one another, and that is more than sufficient.

On that note, I am VERY displeased with the mixing of species who would never share a natural habitat. My reasoning is that an animal from one region would have different bodily bacteria, diseases, parasites, etc. that they have built in immunity to, but another animal from another region - even if they live in similar conditions - does not have these qualities. Anyone remember the whole Native Americans/Small Pocks thing? Yeah. I have a feeling that one of the reasons so many fish in mixed species aquariums get these "mystery illnesses" that they never fully recover from is that they are being exposed to strains of bacteria they are unused to, and thus unable to properly fight.

And, finally, I'm annoyed by people who keep species that are highly territorial - and thus solitary - in community tanks. Not just because a territorial or agressive fish will try to lash out at other fish, but because these animals are constantly stressed by the need to defend an area of the tank they've called thiers from fish who don't understand the messages being given by the other species. I've heard so many people say "Oh, I tried my betta in a big tank, but he just sat in one corner." Then I ask what else they had in the tank, and it becomes apparent that the poor guy was not only probably being harassed, but felt the need to claim and constantly defend the one spot, essentially negating the point of a larger tank.

Eh. I guess it has been my observation that many people in the aquarian hobby still look at their fish as just that - a hobby. Not a pet or companion animal. So, it seems many do not care if they are providing stressful conditions, so long as it looks good and is the mix of fish they wanted. I guess I'm sortof angry about much of the hobby in general. :shrug:

 

[Fella]

It's worth mentioning that tanks just look plan wrong if they're filled with neons and then a goldfish is added. Goldfish look best in a tank devoted just to them and their compatible coldwater tankmates IMO.

 

[FishFun]

What does WCMM stand for?

 

[lljdma06]

What does WCMM stand for?

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White Cloud Mountain Minnow. Try saying that three times fast. I've kept them before. Very interesting, I kept them in the lower end of the tropical temperature spectrum, around 74 degrees. I also kept them in a species tank. It looked prettier, IMHO.

I've never mixed any coldwater with tropicals, or subtropicals. I just don't think it looks right to me, but to each his own, I know some here have done this and have had what they define as success. As to a fish being happy, I guess we can never tell. A good sign to me is spontanious tank breeding. When fish have enough idle time to think about things other than food and basic survival, and is in the air, that's a sign that their happy. Also, color plays an important well. If they look vibrant, they're probably not unhappy with their situation.

I totally understand your rant, I don't like keeping them together either.

 

[fish_keeper2]

it stands for white cloud mountian minno.

i just wanted to add that yesterday at petco they had betta in with livebearers and gouramis. they looked really lonely and kinda depressed. the ones that they had in cups(i hate it when people do this, y dont we shove ur kids in a hamster cage and see how it goes )looked better off then the ones in the tanks.....btw it wa one to a tank incase anyone wondered

 

[The-Wolf]

Wolf - i have 6 WCMM's in my 40G (sig tank) temp is 25.5, will this be okay for them or too hot? I thought up to 26 was okay but you've got me doubting myself now.

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They do best in temps of 22-25c their wild range is 18-29c (year on year).
as I said they can take the tropical temps but also are used to winter snow melts that drastically reduce the temp, but they are officially classified as sub-tropical.
I'm sure yours will be ok at 25.5, Jim, and how accurate are any of these thermometers anyways

Before I knew what I was doing I kept WCMM's at 28c (within range) but as soon as I moved them to a cloder tank they coloured up better and even showed signs of mating, although the danios I put them with proberbly ate all the eggs.