A Rant Thread About Assumptions/actions On Both Sides.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Okay I admit this is a rant thread but I have a couple of things to get off my chest, I know I have a lot more to learn about fish keeping, its one of those things where there is always new stuff to learn, but some things really get me about certain types of members.

This first example is not directed at any particular members, its just one of those things that gets me once in a while and a fairly recent incident has caused me to create this rant thread. Most of its about assumptions on both parts.

a. Every now and then I spend some time helping out in the emergency section, I think its a good thing to share good knowledge about fish keeping when you can as you can save fish's lives by this and hopefully make someone else’s fish keeping experience more enjoyable.
This is my own assumption; about 80% of emergency threads are from people who are newb's or have little understanding about cycling tanks and water stats or correct tank stocking, general newb issue stuff u'know.
Take this for example;

"My fish are dying, the tank is quite new and the fish are gasping at the surface. My tank stocking includes 10 neon tetras, 6danios and a sailfin plec and the tank is 25gals."

So, you assume the fish are gasping at the surface because of a nitrite/ammonia spike in the tank because if the tank is new it is probably cycling and the owner does not know about it especially if they didn't post ammonia, nitrite or nitrate stats. You assume the fish owner is a newb to fish keeping for whatever reasons (probably because most people in the emergency section are newb’s) and explain to them about new tank syndrome/cycling tanks and tell them to get test kits for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.
Because you assume the owner is a newb you might also ask them if they use dechlorinator or wash their filter out in tap water or some other things etc.
You tell them that the sailfin plec will get far too big for the 25gal.
Then you ask them other info like are there any other symptoms the fish are displaying, what is the tank temp and how long the fish were acclimatised before- you post your reply. And then you get this reply;

"I do not like your attitude, I am not a newb, and the sailfin plec is a temporary resident and is only a couple of inches long, of course I use dechlorinator I am not stupid! I have been keeping fish for 10yrs and I know how to cycle a tank and the water stats are fine, I came on here because I was really stumped on what was going wrong with my fish."
...

Now I don't know about you guys, but this sort of reply really gets me.
a. If the person is not a newb to fish keeping and knows about the importance of water stats and other general fish knowledge, they should state this. If you have explored all possibilities on what is wrong with your fish/tank and need to do a thread in the emergency section, you should write down the causes/possibility’s you have explored so far rather than to expect people to somehow pick up on your info without you telling them.
b. It doesn't matter how long you have been keeping fish, its about what you know about fish and how you use/practise your knowledge. You can drive a car for 30yrs and still be a bad driver. You can keep fish for 30yrs and still be a bad fish keeper. When it comes down to it, how long you have been doing your thing doesn't make a difference and isn't a justification, its what you know and practise that counts.
So it irritates me when people try to justify their actions or views on their personal experiences or how long they've been doing them rather than on well-known and accepted facts.
c. If you have a fish that you know will get too big for your tank or you know it is unsuitable in some other way or another and don't want every member who reads your fish stocking to tell you to move your fish or upgrade its tank, then tell people you are doing something about it and very soon (and actually do it too).
People assume when you have an unsuitable fish in your tank, that you do not know it is unsuitable as otherwise you wouldn't have it in there unless you tell them otherwise.

...
Other things that get me are post count.
Just because you have a high post count on this forum does not make you anymore knowledgeable on fish or a better fish keeper, it just means you post a lot and that’s it. The same goes if you have a low post count, being a newb to the forum does not make you a newb to fish keeping. So if you feel that post count means anything more than a number you are misguided in my opinion. But every now and then I see people generally ignoring the advice of people who have low post counts but good advice, or taking the advice of others (when its not actually that good) because they have high post counts and have been around on the forum for a while so they assume they know a lot about fish keeping.
...

b. ....."Experimenting on fish".....
How annoying is it, when you spend time explaining to someone how to sort their major tank stocking issues out because their fish are obviously not meant for each other on the basis of countless peoples experience with keeping them over the years and widely accepted facts, and the person says;
"It’s ok to experiment with fish once in a while or bend the rules"
"The fish will eventually settle down I know it, I’ve kept these so called unsuitable fish species together before and they've been fine"
"My friend had these fish together and they were fine"
"Fish aren’t made of silk, its ok if they die once in a while"
"I can't afford a new tank and I don't want to rehome the fish so I am keeping them together"
"The lfs had these fish together in their tanks and they were fine then"

.... I could go on, but when you know that someone is keeping 2 or more very unsuitable fish together like 2 male bettas in the same open tank or a group of aggressive cichlids in a livebearer tank, and you get one of these replies or more, it can make your blood boil deep down.
Listen to me, if fish display aggression towards each other, become a bully fish, have been known to get aggressive as they grow, are predatory and will eat other fish, are behaving against their normal predictable behavior due to bad living conditions like too few of their own kind or too many etc, or are acting unsociably or strangely in other ways, then you should remove and rehome the offending fish or get their own suitable tank or change their living requirements appropriately so they cause no more worry.
What will not happen though is that fish that are well known not to get along will not get along, and in the rare situations where they do not drive themselves or their tank mates to death, they will be living in a state of stress or fear. If you do not want to accept advice you don’t have to, but if you don’t want to listen to good advice and only want to listen to want you want to hear then surely you have to ask yourself why you came on the forum in the first place. Also, I have to warn you that many people care deeply about fish as creatures far more than cheap throw away pets or decorations or creatures where morality does not apply to them, including goldfish, so be carefull what you say if you are about to say something along those lines about fish.


Heh, heh...Ahh...that was a good rant...sorry about that...
If anyone else wants to rant on this thread go ahead, i think i was gonna rant about some other stuff but i've been typing so long i've temporarily forgotten about what i was gonna rant about ) . Im not trying to justify anything i've done myself in any way, im just trying to explain why certain things get me or what i think about them .

 

[Bloo]

that's a good old rant - bet you feel better now !

Tokis, sometimes you just have to let go and walk away.
You've been around long enough now to realise some people come here to learn - and others (in the minority) come here to affirm their own thoughts & ideas. When they ask for "advice" and they don't like what they hear, they will choose to ignore it.
I'm not pointing any fingers - it's a generalisation.

Such is life really.......

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

that's a good old rant - bet you feel better now !

Tokis, sometimes you just have to let go and walk away.
You've been around long enough now to realise some people come here to learn - and others (in the minority) come here to affirm their own thoughts & ideas. When they ask for "advice" and they don't like what they hear, they will choose to ignore it.
I'm not pointing any fingers - it's a generalisation.

Such is life really.......

Yeah i know i should probably walk away a bit more, its one of those things im still working on though, many years ago when i used to live with my brother we used to argue and debate all the time and i still hate walking away from situations where i very feel i know whats right . So as a consequence every now and then i need to rant a bit like im 50yrs older

 

[prankster705]

Jupi, lets rant, no don't have time for that, I agree with what you said, and just wan't to this to really stick out: don't look for advice, if you don't listen to it. Had a little fun reading it, but it's true, so BRAVO, btw long post lol.
EDIT: PS: Pin it! lol.

 

[Ben]

Well said Tokis! You have said what i have been thinking these past few weeks when i'm on the forum.
As Bloo said, people only take advice if it suits them.
So what we need to do as fellow fish keepers, is to try and make them as happy as possible. By that i dont just mean let them have their pleco in a 20 gal. I mean we can find replacements for the fish and try and coax them into getting that.
i.e
"I have 20 gal long tank with a common pleco and black tetras and he is doing fine and isn't growing much, so i'm happy"
now this is our turn:
"Unfortunatly the common pleco isn't very suitable for a 20 gal long tank as they can grow to over 12 inches and can get stunted in growth if kept in a tank of that size. And eventually they will die. So you don't want to hurt mr. pleco do you? So you can take him back to the LFS and get a Bristlenose pleco. Just as good looking as a common and only grows to 5 inches and should be okay in a 20 gal for a while and will live a long happy life with you"

So we have to(it is a pain, i know) try and acomadate the newb's needs.
JMO

Once again, well said.

DD

 

[Yarra]

Okay I admit this is a rant thread but I have a couple of things to get off my chest, I know I have a lot more to learn about fish keeping, its one of those things where there is always new stuff to learn, but some things really get me about certain types of members.

This first example is not directed at any particular members, its just one of those things that gets me once in a while and a fairly recent incident has caused me to create this rant thread. Most of its about assumptions on both parts.

a. Every now and then I spend some time helping out in the emergency section, I think its a good thing to share good knowledge about fish keeping when you can as you can save fish's lives by this and hopefully make someone else’s fish keeping experience more enjoyable.
This is my own assumption; about 80% of emergency threads are from people who are newb's or have little understanding about cycling tanks and water stats or correct tank stocking, general newb issue stuff u'know.
Take this for example;

"My fish are dying, the tank is quite new and the fish are gasping at the surface. My tank stocking includes 10 neon tetras, 6danios and a sailfin plec and the tank is 25gals."

So, you assume the fish are gasping at the surface because of a nitrite/ammonia spike in the tank because if the tank is new it is probably cycling and the owner does not know about it especially if they didn't post ammonia, nitrite or nitrate stats. You assume the fish owner is a newb to fish keeping for whatever reasons (probably because most people in the emergency section are newb’s) and explain to them about new tank syndrome/cycling tanks and tell them to get test kits for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.
Because you assume the owner is a newb you might also ask them if they use dechlorinator or wash their filter out in tap water or some other things etc.
You tell them that the sailfin plec will get far too big for the 25gal.
Then you ask them other info like are there any other symptoms the fish are displaying, what is the tank temp and how long the fish were acclimatised before- you post your reply. And then you get this reply;

"I do not like your attitude, I am not a newb, and the sailfin plec is a temporary resident and is only a couple of inches long, of course I use dechlorinator I am not stupid! I have been keeping fish for 10yrs and I know how to cycle a tank and the water stats are fine, I came on here because I was really stumped on what was going wrong with my fish."
...

Now I don't know about you guys, but this sort of reply really gets me.
a. If the person is not a newb to fish keeping and knows about the importance of water stats and other general fish knowledge, they should state this. If you have explored all possibilities on what is wrong with your fish/tank and need to do a thread in the emergency section, you should write down the causes/possibility’s you have explored so far rather than to expect people to somehow pick up on your info without you telling them.
b. It doesn't matter how long you have been keeping fish, its about what you know about fish and how you use/practise your knowledge. You can drive a car for 30yrs and still be a bad driver. You can keep fish for 30yrs and still be a bad fish keeper. When it comes down to it, how long you have been doing your thing doesn't make a difference and isn't a justification, its what you know and practise that counts.
So it irritates me when people try to justify their actions or views on their personal experiences or how long they've been doing them rather than on well-known and accepted facts.
c. If you have a fish that you know will get too big for your tank or you know it is unsuitable in some other way or another and don't want every member who reads your fish stocking to tell you to move your fish or upgrade its tank, then tell people you are doing something about it and very soon (and actually do it too).
People assume when you have an unsuitable fish in your tank, that you do not know it is unsuitable as otherwise you wouldn't have it in there unless you tell them otherwise.

...
Other things that get me are post count.
Just because you have a high post count on this forum does not make you anymore knowledgeable on fish or a better fish keeper, it just means you post a lot and that’s it. The same goes if you have a low post count, being a newb to the forum does not make you a newb to fish keeping. So if you feel that post count means anything more than a number you are misguided in my opinion. But every now and then I see people generally ignoring the advice of people who have low post counts but good advice, or taking the advice of others (when its not actually that good) because they have high post counts and have been around on the forum for a while so they assume they know a lot about fish keeping.
...

b. ....."Experimenting on fish".....
How annoying is it, when you spend time explaining to someone how to sort their major tank stocking issues out because their fish are obviously not meant for each other on the basis of countless peoples experience with keeping them over the years and widely accepted facts, and the person says;
"It’s ok to experiment with fish once in a while or bend the rules"
"The fish will eventually settle down I know it, I’ve kept these so called unsuitable fish species together before and they've been fine"
"My friend had these fish together and they were fine"
"Fish aren’t made of silk, its ok if they die once in a while"
"I can't afford a new tank and I don't want to rehome the fish so I am keeping them together"
"The lfs had these fish together in their tanks and they were fine then"

.... I could go on, but when you know that someone is keeping 2 or more very unsuitable fish together like 2 male bettas in the same open tank or a group of aggressive cichlids in a livebearer tank, and you get one of these replies or more, it can make your blood boil deep down.
Listen to me, if fish display aggression towards each other, become a bully fish, have been known to get aggressive as they grow, are predatory and will eat other fish, are behaving against their normal predictable behavior due to bad living conditions like too few of their own kind or too many etc, or are acting unsociably or strangely in other ways, then you should remove and rehome the offending fish or get their own suitable tank or change their living requirements appropriately so they cause no more worry.
What will not happen though is that fish that are well known not to get along will not get along, and in the rare situations where they do not drive themselves or their tank mates to death, they will be living in a state of stress or fear. If you do not want to accept advice you don’t have to, but if you don’t want to listen to good advice and only want to listen to want you want to hear then surely you have to ask yourself why you came on the forum in the first place. Also, I have to warn you that many people care deeply about fish as creatures far more than cheap throw away pets or decorations or creatures where morality does not apply to them, including goldfish, so be carefull what you say if you are about to say something along those lines about fish.


Heh, heh...Ahh...that was a good rant...sorry about that...
If anyone else wants to rant on this thread go ahead, i think i was gonna rant about some other stuff but i've been typing so long i've temporarily forgotten about what i was gonna rant about ) . Im not trying to justify anything i've done myself in any way, im just trying to explain why certain things get me or what i think about them .

It was not that i didn't like what I heard, It was the tone in which it was given. You assumed I was an idiot, and even questioned that I might not have treated my tap water.

There are many ways to tell someone information via the web. It is very hard to hear tone, as a reader, and express tone, as a writer. As a writer, you have a responsibility to make sure your the tone you hear in your head as you type is coming across in the text.

Like you said, it was very early in the morning for you. I really DO appreciate you took the time to come to my aid. In some way, i feel bad that you didn't ask me about me for your sake. You covered MANY things I already new about, and that weren't even issues. I hate that you wasted that time. But am grateful for the time you gave me.

I do not want to get off on the wrong foot here. Just please understand where I am coming from. The information and accusations made in your post to me, could have been said in a completely different and more productive way. That is all.

As for my emergency, i think the PMart fish were sick. I am taking them all back right now. The danios have almost all lost their tails, and the platy's tail is beginning to go as well. I will probably loose my betta. he has been my little trooper for over a year now. I hate to see him go like this.

 

[prankster705]

Tokis why didn't you name the tread:
It's good to let it out sometimes
My turn
LOL
It's healthy to express your felings and emotions, it helps a person to relax, so to everyone, who is stiff: "Just come here".
I think I am gonna enjoy reading this topic.LOL

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

[

It was not that i didn't like what I heard, It was the tone in which it was given. You assumed I was an idiot, and even questioned that I might not have treated my tap water.

There are many ways to tell someone information via the web. It is very hard to hear tone, as a reader, and express tone, as a writer. As a writer, you have a responsibility to make sure your the tone you hear in your head as you type is coming across in the text.

Like you said, it was very early in the morning for you. I really DO appreciate you took the time to come to my aid. In some way, i feel bad that you didn't ask me about me for your sake. You covered MANY things I already new about, and that weren't even issues. I hate that you wasted that time. But am grateful for the time you gave me.

I do not want to get off on the wrong foot here. Just please understand where I am coming from. The information and accusations made in your post to me, could have been said in a completely different and more productive way. That is all.

As for my emergency, i think the PMart fish were sick. I am taking them all back right now. The danios have almost all lost their tails, and the platy's tail is beginning to go as well. I will probably loose my betta. he has been my little trooper for over a year now. I hate to see him go like this.
[/quote]

Yeah i am sorry about that misunderstanding, i suppose i have sort of got used to assuming things on people in the emergency section in general(which i know i shouldn't do), but when you spend 2 pages of thread trying to figure out what is going wrong with somones fish and then you find out they don't dechlorinate their tap water that they put into their tank it makes you sigh and wonder why you didn't ask that in the first place. So i try to ask or tell these things right at the start than assuming the person knows all the basics because its amazing somtimes how many things people can miss at times, although i am now sure that you are not a newb.
Im sorry to hear about your fish, finrot can realy devastate, i recently cured my guppys from it using a combo of primafix, melafix and aquarium salt but i still had some casualtys. At least your senegal bichir is doing well though, it would be a shame to lose such an amazing fish so early on- if you got your betta from walmart i have heard they sell their bettas at quite a ripe age(up to a year old) and bettas usually only live for 2yrs apparently so he could already be coming to the end of his natural lifespan if you've had him a year.

 

[Synirr]

Other things that get me are post count.
Just because you have a high post count on this forum does not make you anymore knowledgeable on fish or a better fish keeper, it just means you post a lot and that’s it.

Well said, that bothers me as well... or when people say something like "I've been keeping fish for 10 years" as a way to back up their point. I don't care how much experience you have, provide me with actual evidence or specific examples to prove what you've said is true. It doesn't matter how long you've been doing something, everyone is always learning and no one can be right 100% of the time... the ideas of others should never be dismissed or accepted based solely on the person's experience level.

"Fish aren’t made of silk, its ok if they die once in a while"

...*snicker*

 

[rdd1952]

I agree with almost everything said. I too wonder why people come here and ask for advice when their not going to follow it anyway. In the last few weeks, I have added a disclaimer to my signature just for some of these occasions. If you don't say you are experienced and I see a low post count (yes, I know they don't mean anything but a low post count and someone asking for advice usually means a newbie, especially if I don't recognize your ID), I can only assume that you are new to the hobby and give advice accordingly. I would much rather tell someone something they already know than not tell them that say they need to use dechlorinator for example and later find out that was their whole problem to begin with.

As Tokis said, we are all here because fish are more than throw away toys to us. We care for the welfare of our fish and of every other members fish. I'm done ranting now too (that wasn't really a rant). We've got a great forum here and great people. Keep up the good work everyone.

Well said, that bothers me as well... or when people say something like "I've been keeping fish for 10 years" as a way to back up their point. I don't care how much experience you have, provide me with actual evidence or specific examples to prove what you've said is true. It doesn't matter how long you've been doing something, everyone is always learning and no one can be right 100% of the time... the ideas of others should never be dismissed or accepted based solely on the person's experience level.

We actually kid about this at work. We sell retaining wall block and we get those people that want to do something that you know will create a faulty installation. You tell them so and the first thing out of their mouth is "I've been doing this for 30 years and I know what I'm doing". You know then that particular job is going to be a problem. Same applies here.

 

[Hopester]

What gets me here (I'm a newb) is in some of the threads where people are asking questions, someone will post a fairly succinct reply and three posts later in the thread someone will give exactly the same advice

WHY? Don't these people read?

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

What gets me here (I'm a newb) is in some of the threads where people are asking questions, someone will post a fairly succinct reply and three posts later in the thread someone will give exactly the same advice

WHY? Don't these people read?

Agreed.
Equally annoying though is when you open up a section and there are 2-3 or more threads all on the same subject that are very close together. If i want to start a thread, the first thing i do is make sure the same sort of thread i am about to do isn't already on the same page- i sort of just find it polite this way, as so not to rob the other thread of its originality or somthing.

 

[Fella]

What gets me here (I'm a newb) is in some of the threads where people are asking questions, someone will post a fairly succinct reply and three posts later in the thread someone will give exactly the same advice

WHY? Don't these people read?

Agreed.
Equally annoying though is when you open up a section and there are 2-3 or more threads all on the same subject that are very close together. If i want to start a thread, the first thing i do is make sure the same sort of thread i am about to do isn't already on the same page- i sort of just find it polite this way, as so not to rob the other thread of its originality or somthing.

I'd actually disagree with this point. I think sometimes it is important to have more than one person opinion on particular issues. If the opinions are the same, then it can often hit home exactly what should be done. But it can be annoying sometimes. I remember owning a goldfish when I first start keeping fish and everyone going mental at me telling me they needed 10 gallons, and I was just going "what? are you bonkers? They're an inch long!". I soon learned however.

I agree with your other points though wholeheartedly, and if we're allowed a rant, I'd like to question the old

"I will be rehoming him when he gets too big"

argument. What?!

How does that ACTUALLY WORK? Fish don't grow so big they break the glass on their tanks and all the water escapes, and at that time you can decide you need to rehome them, nor do they hold up a big sign saying "hey, get me out of here". IMO, unless you are either growing out fry, or you already have a tank in your house, set up, cycled, and ready to take a fish into it, there is never an excuse for buying a fish too big for it's tank. How do people know when they are so big they are going to need rehoming? Is it a percentage of the tankspace they are using requirement? I don't understand. If there is a proper, official way to measure how big fish should be in tanks too small for them, I'd love to know what it is, because it's lost on me. I hope I haven't rubbed anyone up the wrong way with that paragraph

And when people owning fish have a fish incorrectly housed (and they are told so), and then say the next day "I got new fish!" that drives me a bit mad as well.

I try not to let it get to me though.

 

[CatLover]

Bravo on everyone's thoughts

 

[Synirr]

WHY? Don't these people read?

No