A ? About Adding Fish That Were Shipped To The Tank

[~heidi~]

Hi,
  I bought my first fish from Aquabid. I am very excited. I have been looking for a Blue Platy for a long time now and for some reason just can't seem to find them around here. Even tried to get my LFS to order some for me and he just didn't want to deal with it. So I found 3 beauties on Aquabid and they are being shipped Monday.
 
My question is, once I get them I am assuming they will be very stressed. Is there any special way I need to go about adding them to my tank or do I do it the same way I add a fish that I brought home from the LFS?
 
I am so very excited to get my new fishes I don't want to do anything to them that could harm them or stress them out more...
 
Thank you very much for your  help and advice.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

They will have been in the dark for quite a long time... Keep them in the dark.  The temp may have dropped from what your tank is, so make sure you float them before you do anything else - up to an hour, WITHOUT OPENING the bag.
 
Then you can do either the "float and fill" method or the preferred "drip" method.
 
Try this acclimation guide for help along the way.  DON'T RUSH IT!!!
http/www.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=157
 
 
And congrats on your special fish.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The biggest cause of death or harm to shipped in fish has to do with ammonia and pH.
 
Most often there can be ammonia in the bag water. If one is unaware of the pH of the bag water vs the pH of the water being added to acclimate, it becomes very easy to turn non-toxic ammonium into toxic ammonia simply by raising the pH. Raise it slowly over time and what you are doing is subjecting the fish to more toxic ammonia levels the longer you take to acclimate.
 
I find I am doing less acclimating and more plop and drop after allowing about 15-20 minutes to float the bags in the tank for temp. balancing. Be sure to rinse the bags before floating them in the tank. Wipe them off after rinsing before floating unless your water is chlorine/chloramine free (private well).
 
If you feel you must do some form of water additions to acclimate, try to check the pH level of the bag water vs your tap or tank water. You can even test for ammonia in the bag water as long as the seller didn't use bag buddies and turn the water blue. That way you will know exactly where things stand right away. You should also ask the seller in what water params he has kept the fish.

 

[Mamashack]

Good luck with your new fish heidi! Sounds like you've found some beautiful ones there! Try and post a pic or 2 when you've acclimatised them and they've settled into their new home.
Great link eagles - have saved it for future reference!

 

[~heidi~]

Thank you very much for the advice and link.
Going to go and check it out now and will definitely post pics of my new babies. 

   
Thank you again for the help.

 

[This Old Spouse]

I would think a drastic change in pH as in the "plop and drop" method would be more harmful than anything. I would float the bag with the top open, then do the drip acclimation adding a small amount of tank water over the course of an hour or so. Then net the fish and put them in the tank without pouring the bag water in it.
 
Frankly, I'd set up a Q tank for them in a low lit space and proceed with the above, not knowing the tank conditions from where they were shipped.

 

[r.w.girard]

The biggest cause of death or harm to shipped in fish has to do with ammonia and pH.
 
Most often there can be ammonia in the bag water. If one is unaware of the pH of the bag water vs the pH of the water being added to acclimate, it becomes very easy to turn non-toxic ammonium into toxic ammonia simply by raising the pH. Raise it slowly over time and what you are doing is subjecting the fish to more toxic ammonia levels the longer you take to acclimate.
 
I find I am doing less acclimating and more plop and drop after allowing about 15-20 minutes to float the bags in the tank for temp. balancing. Be sure to rinse the bags before floating them in the tank. Wipe them off after rinsing before floating unless your water is chlorine/chloramine free (private well).
 
If you feel you must do some form of water additions to acclimate, try to check the pH level of the bag water vs your tap or tank water. You can even test for ammonia in the bag water as long as the seller didn't use bag buddies and turn the water blue. That way you will know exactly where things stand right away. You should also ask the seller in what water params he has kept the fish.

 
Amin, this is really an interesting thought, which makes quite a bit of sense.  I would wonder, though, and maybe you could answer this for me, if this is such a problem in acidic tanks.  Increasing the pH towards 6.5 or higher, would indeed lead to a significant increase in ammonia to ammonium in the bag, especially as temperature rises.  But in a tank with a pH lower than 6.5, would this matter?

 

[CezzaXV]

I'm not disagreeing with the ammonia issue, but surely when you drip water in, you're massively diluting the ammonia until it's almost non-existent? I would have thought that the risk of shocking/massively stressing your fish by plopping and dropping was far greater than leaving them in the (increasingly diluted) ammonia water for a small amount of additional time.

 

[This Old Spouse]

I'm not disagreeing with the ammonia issue, but surely when you drip water in, you're massively diluting the ammonia until it's almost non-existent? I would have thought that the risk of shocking/massively stressing your fish by plopping and dropping was far greater than leaving them in the (increasingly diluted) ammonia water for a small amount of additional time.

 
That's certainly my thought. 

 

[RCA]

As well as assisting ~heidi~ this is an interesting debate; to plop or not to plop?
 
From my perspective there are a number of things to consider:

1. Light - I would do as eaglesaquarium has advised, as they will have been in the dark for sometime and sudden light may shock them.  I actually drew the curtains and turned out all lights with only a little coming from the doorway when I got my first shipped fish.
2. Temperature - I definitely believe in getting the fish up to temperature by floating the bag in the aquarium is important.
3. Acclimatising - I like the link that has been provided by eaglesaquarium except for the comment in the Quote below...
4. Testing - I like to test the water the fish arrives in, as this gives me a guide to them settling into my aquarium.  In this respect ~heidi~ you can do this on their arrival, but you could also ask the person you are getting them from what their water parameters are currently?  Of course there is a risk with the latter suggestion in that it may not be 100% accurate, with different test kits etc.  Also, see further on re: plop and drop.

Lift the shipping bag from the aquarium and discard half the water from the bag
[SOURCE]

 
Rather than lift the bag with risk of
a) stressing the fish
b) accidentally loosing them when tipping out water
 
I would use a large syringe or turkey baster to remove the water down to 50%, therefore avoiding a & b.  I also use a large syringe to acclimatise my fish, as this way I can measure the amount of water I am adding each time.  It is almost like in-between the two methods described in the link.
 
~heidi~ - do you have a quarantine tank for your new arrivals?  Monday will be an exciting day for you...looking forward to the pics.
 
Now as for the plop and drop...
I had read somewhere that if a fish arrives in very high ammonia it can be better for the fish to be put into the new water ASAP, once of course the temperature has reached the right point.  I have not done this myself and am therefore interested in people's experiences. 
 
TwoTankAmin, please could you share more about your experience in this method i.e. what fish have you done this with?, how many times?, has it always been successful?, do you still use other methods at times as well?
 
In my experience I once received three Corys with some Bettas.  The Bettas (females mainly) were individually bagged (which I also request now from the LFS, due to a bad experience of three females in one bag from an LFS), yet the three Corys were in one bag.  One of the Corys did not look too good in the bag and when I eventually opened it the smell was horrendous.  I took a syringe of their water for testing and then immediately started to add my water to the bag.  I then went and did the test and this was the results:
 

 
 
As you can see the Corys water is marked "set back Catfish water" and is so dark green I reckon it was off the scale, poor things!  Certainly the smell took me aback.
 
In this instance I later found the Cory that did not look good on arrival, in the tank stuck to the filter inlet in the middle of the night.  I scooped him up and put him into a holding area floating in the aquarium.  He gave no resistance to me catching him, plus a well fish would not get stuck to the filter intake but swim away.  Alas sadly he died.  So my question to all is, would in this instance, it have been better to plop and drop (once temperature had been reached), thereby removing the Corys from the toxic water sooner?

 

[r.w.girard]

I'm not disagreeing with the ammonia issue, but surely when you drip water in, you're massively diluting the ammonia until it's almost non-existent? I would have thought that the risk of shocking/massively stressing your fish by plopping and dropping was far greater than leaving them in the (increasingly diluted) ammonia water for a small amount of additional time.

 
Cezza, I cannot speak for another, obviously, but I think the idea is that the ammonia in the water is not necessarily "increasingly diluted," as less toxic ammonium is converted to ammonia exponentially in relation to pH increase and also increases in function of temperature.  Adding twice as much clean water could still mean twice as much ammonia in ppm.  In short, this is why what changes, even large ones in a tank with "old tank syndrome" is so dangerous: when you add new water, the pH can swing, converting latent ammonium into ammonia, poisoning, in the case of new arrivals, already weak fish.
 
But, then again, I always drip-acclamate my new fish...

 

[eaglesaquarium]

As well as assisting ~heidi~ this is an interesting debate; to plop or not to plop?
 
From my perspective there are a number of things to consider:

1. Light - I would do as eaglesaquarium has advised, as they will have been in the dark for sometime and sudden light may shock them.  I actually drew the curtains and turned out all lights with only a little coming from the doorway when I got my first shipped fish.
2. Temperature - I definitely believe in getting the fish up to temperature by floating the bag in the aquarium is important.
3. Acclimatising - I like the link that has been provided by eaglesaquarium except for the comment in the Quote below...
4. Testing - I like to test the water the fish arrives in, as this gives me a guide to them settling into my aquarium.  In this respect ~heidi~ you can do this on their arrival, but you could also ask the person you are getting them from what their water parameters are currently?  Of course there is a risk with the latter suggestion in that it may not be 100% accurate, with different test kits etc.  Also, see further on re: plop and drop.

Lift the shipping bag from the aquarium and discard half the water from the bag
[SOURCE]

 
Great discussion points... Almost worthy of a separate thread.  I might move this and any other relevant stuff to a new thread, if it picks up steam.
 
 
As for the reason for the quoted section: the link to the acclimation process is from a commercial seller in the US.  They send their fish in fairly large amounts of water, so removing some of the water makes it easier to float and fill, if going that method.  If you use the drip method, there's no reason to do that - just have a large enough bucket on hand (fish specific, of course!).
 
 
 
Honestly, we need to have our own "Acclimation guide" complete with pictures, etc.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I may not have explained things clearly. I apologize for that. Also, the acclimation methods I am discussing are for fw fish. I have no sw experience and can not comment on what might be best for them as there are different considerations involved I think.
 
So for fw fish, hopefully they go into a bag of nice clean water at the start. The thing about shipping fish is most of the cost involved is not due to the weight of the fish, but to the weight of the water. The best shippers have this down to an art- overnight gets one volume 2nd day gets more. And then there is the pressure for the buyer to hold down shipping costs. So the amount of water is as little as it can be.
 
Now the fish are in the bag and what happens during the journey? First the temp. tends to drop (yes there are heat packs and summer weather but I am talking in general). And cooler temps mean ammonia is less toxic. Cooler temps also act to "sedate" the fish so many shipper prefer to ship them a bit on the cool side for just this reason. During the journey the fish are breathing which means they are making ammonia, and they may be pooping which is also creating ammonia. They are also making co2. Now as more co2 gets into the water, it creates some carbonic acid and this also drops the pH. Plus it tends to use up the KH which also allows the pH to drop more readily.
 
Then the bag arrives and the fishkeeper begins the acclimation process. The first thing we do is raise the temp. of the bag water, and this starts the process of converting non-toxic ammonium into toxic ammonia. Then we start to add water, and the odds are pretty good it is going to be a higher pH and with more buffering than is in the bag water. And then the pH starts to rise, and as it rises the ammonia gets ever more toxic despite the fact we are diluting the nag water.
 
As for pH changes in the absence of ammonia, I can only report my experiences relative to wild caught altum angels. I have personally dropped the pH in my altum tank by a full point or more on several occasions in only a few minutes with no ill effects, I have also watched the importer from whom I purchased them do this in several tanks while I was at his facility. Both of us rely on digital pH meters for testing. I can not comment on much larger rapid pH changes as I have no experience with them. I can also not comment on the reverse, raising pH by a point as I have never done that knowingly.
 
I hoped someone in this thread would have a light bulb come on and figure out another way to acclimate if you do not want to do the plop and drop. If you accept the idea that ammonia can be the big problem, the easiest way to guard against it is to make the first thing you add to the bag be an ammonia detoxifier. In larger commercial operations they can do things differently. They can test the pH of bag water and then dilute it with clean water pH matched to the bag water. They effectively dilute the ammonia out of the bag water without raising the pH. Most hobbyist do not have this option. Once they have dealt with the ammonia issue they are free to change the incoming water params slowly to match their system's pH TDS, salinity etc. at any pace they want.
 
I ship fish and have always added a small amount of Amquel to the bag water. Of course this makes it hard for folks at the other end to test ammonia accurately. I hate using the bag buddies which turn the water blue as it makes it impossible for most folks to test the water for anything.
 
Regarding shipping corys there is a special consideration. When frightened they will excrete a hormone (I think hormone but if is for sure some substance). In the wild it can act as a bit of a repellant and then dissipates rapidly. However, if they do this in the bag, it can create issues. Many cory shipper will uses the kick the bucket method to try and prevent this. Corys are put into a buclet of clean water and the bucket is give a swift kick every 5 or 10 minutes. The idea is to scare the fish into releasing the hormone into the bucket water. After a few kicks, the fish are removed from the bucket and bagged in clean water. The problem is once corys have spent time in bag water with the hormone, they do not tend to recover. Often a clue there is a problem is you may see red areas on the fish when they arrive.
 
As for how many times I have used the plop and drop, pretty much for anything I have gotten in the last 3 or 4 years. I have found that most fish are a lot hardier than we think. The last time was Friday. I picked up 50 amano shrimp which had been bagged Thursday morning. I put them into the plant wash tank where their job is to clean plants of algae I will rotate in and out. I got them out of the bag and into the tank about 36 hours after they went in. I floated the bags during dinner, and then opened them and dropped in the shrimp. They are all fine still and happily munching algae. And shrimp are normally less hardy than fish when it comes to toxic stuff in the water.
 
I have done the plop and drop with a variety of fish besides altums which include some very rare and pricey Hypancistrus plecos.
 
The one thing I do know is if you open a bag of shipped in fish and it stinks, get the fish into clean water ASAP (as soon as practical). If a bag arrives and some fish are dead, get the rest into clean water ASAP.
 
Now lets look at the advice about no sudden light because it stresses fish. Unless one has the type of lights on their tank that can be dimmed and then one uses a means to control this, we burst the light onto our fish daily when the lights are first turned on. If this were such a horrible thing, would we not have seen problems from this before? So I wonder how much of a real fact this is vs it sounds logical but may not really be? I will sometimes turn off the tank light for a bit after adding fish. But, the reason is that new fish need to adjust to new surroundings and tank mates and the existing fish need to accept the "intruder". Turning the lights down may help mute the aggression side of things, but it may not help at all. However, if you are going to float bags in the tank, it means they will be very close to the lights, and at this stage it is best to have the lights off. Leaving them on subjects the fish to the maximum brightness from which they have no retreat. Lights can also cause the bag water to heat up. Clearly, the more intense lighting one has, the more important a consideration it will be. In my low light tanks I do not turn off the light when I float the bags. Sometimes I will set up a bucket with a heater and use it to temp. equalize rather than floating the bags into the tank. When lazy i just keep adding warm tap water.
 
In the end each of us has to do what we think is best for our fish. However, one should be aware that fish shippers come in all types. Some are very meticulous about purging properly, about what they put into the bag and how they do things in general. Others don't care so much and will not do as good a job. Each time you get fish shipped in is an individual event and the best thing is to deal with things based on the conditions at the time. One bag you may decide to drip acclimate while another you may decide to plop and drop.
 
What is important is to understand what is going on and then decide how to handle it.

 

[Mamashack]

Noted for when I get my betta hopefully soon.

 

[This Old Spouse]

An excellent read, TwoTankAmin. You raise some interesting points.
 
I have one question: do you net the fish out of the bag and put them in the tank? I ask this because I always worry that by pouring the bag into the tank I might be introducing something bad that might be avoided by netting the fish, which I do.