8 Days In...

[orange shark]

No movement at all...Ammonia still at 3ppm, no Nitrite and pH steady at 7.4.
 
Would have expected even a little bit of movement by now, bit depressing really

 

[SarahMarie]

Mine took 13 days for the ammonia to go down to 0 and that was with some media from a cycled tank

 

[TwoTankAmin]

What makes the start of ammonia bacteria colonizing and making ammonia drop is how much one has at the start combined with one's specific water params.
 
Sarah 13 days to hit 0 is pretty good. Given two ammonia doses it is not uncommon for it to take 3 weeks+ to see 0s.
 
Orange- if you can post more information about your water parameters, what ammonia you are adding, what test kits you use etc. it helps a lot in figuring out what is going on. Historical readings are also very good to have as well.

 

[orange shark]

Hi TTA
 
Tank - Juwel Rio 180 (180 litres)
Test Kit - API Liquid Master Test Kit
Ammonia - Homebase Household Ammonia (9.5% no surfacants)
 
19/8
Added 5ml Ammonia after using the TFF calculator (0.63ml less than recommended as I was aware of reduced volume due to the filter box) 
Ammonia tested between the 2ppm and 4ppm colours, so assumed 3ppm
 
20/8
Ammonia 3ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
pH 8.0 (believe this was a false reading due to my error)
 
21/8 (added 1 piece of wood)
 
Ammonia 3ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
pH 7.2-7.4 (couldn't quite decide which colour)
 
22/8 (added substrate)
No tests
 
23/8
 
Ammonia 3ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
pH 7.4
 
24/8
No tests
 
25/8
 
Ammonia 3ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
pH 7.4
 
26/8
No tests
 
27/8
 
Ammonia 3ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
pH 7.4
 
Let me know if anything else is required

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Nothing out of line in what you reported. There are a few things I would like to confirm/ask- is the surface of the tank water being agitated to insure good oxygen exchange and do you know the KH of the water. I want to be sure there is adequate carbon for the bacteria although I would expect there is. Finally, what dechlor are you using and have you done any water changes (doubt you have but checking).
 
I would offer 3 thoughts:
 
1. It is possible that the amount of bacteria that came in with the water was below average. This would have a slowing effect.
2. It is possible that the ammonia is dropping some but you cannot tell yet. It could be 2.5 ppm and it would be hard to tell. Hitting close to 2 ppm you should be able to see the difference clearly.
3, Something else that we have not yet stumbled onto but should with more info.
 
Normally, I expext to see some drop in ammonia within a week, even if it is small and then it should accelerate. However given all the variable, there are no real hard and fast time lines.
 
One thing you might try just to be sure what is up is a diluted ammonia test. Use distilled or bottled water for diluting as you do not want to have to add dechlor etc. and you want the diluting water not to be your tap. Fill a measuring cup half way with tank water then fill it the rest of the way with the diluting water. then test it. it should give you a reading about 1/2 of what your are getting now. It should be clearly under 2 ppm. If it is not, that will give us some good clues where to look for the problem, next.

 

[orange shark]

Hi TTA,
 
Thanks for the response.
 
I've got a lot of surface agitation so no problems there, I havent got a KH test, but i'm in Sheffield and we have pretty soft water here. In regards to adequate carbon I do have the Juwel black filter pad in (I think it's something to do with Carbon but can't remember off the top of my head), could this be an issue? I've done no water changes yet, and don't plan to until the cycle has finished, and i'm using Prime to dechlorinate.
 
In regards to the Ammonia dropping a small bit, I suppose it is possible but I would expect there to be a Nitrite reading even if it has only dropped by 0.5 (could be wrong there though).
 
I will try the test with bottled water tomorrow and get back to you!
 
Many thanks,
OS

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The carbon I am referring to is not what goes into a filter. It is derived from inorganic source. For example, baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. The bicarbonate part is inorganic carbon. It needs to be dissolved in the water for the bacteria to use it. KH (carbonate hardness) in a tank comes mostly carbonates and bicarbonates. It is intertwined with pH. KH helps keep pH stable and to resist change and that is out main concern with it. However, without sufficient inorganic carbon in the water, the bacteria suffer. So the way one can know there are enough carbonates in the water for the bacteria testing KH will let us know. The softer the water and the lower the pH, the lower the KH tends to be.
 
Yes, there should be some nitrite showing up if the ammonia is dropping. But sometimes it will appear to lag a bit due to the inadequacies of test kits. And the process is one which starts off slowly and things then accelerate. It looks like nothing is happening and then suddenly it is. Finally, Prime, and similar dechlors, can mess with results some. Have a read here http/www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime.html
 
Hobby test kits have their biggest problems when levels are very low or very high. The purpose of my suggesting the diluted test is you would make a big change to the ammonia level in the sample being teste,d and that would easily show whether or not the test kit is the problem.
 
In most cases it is simple a matter of being patient. Unless we add bacteria from a cycled tank at the start, we simple have no way to know what came from the tap. There are a number of factors involved that can affect this and there is 0 way to know in any home how much there is. Your closest neighbor can have much more bacteria in their plumbing than you. It is a longih paper and more info than you may want for sure, but it shows how there is bacteria in the plumbing and why its highest potential to be is in the private parts of the water supply system.
http/www.bvsde.paho.org/bvsacg/fulltext/chloramine.pdf

 

[orange shark]

Apologies for the lack of reply, I have been away since Thursday so tested when I got back this afternoon and we finally have movement!
 
Ammonia - approx 1ppm
Nitrite - 0.25-0.5ppm
Nitrate - 40ppm
pH - 7.4
 
So a reasonable drop in Ammonia but little Nitrite produced, i'm hoping like you said earlier that it is a delayed response and i'll get a bigger reading in the next few days. 

Bit more positive now i've actually seen some movement

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If all you did was the initial addition of ammonia and nothing since. Your recent results are a tad confusing. I would feel better if I knew what your tap water nitrates were. The basic conversion of 1 ppm of ammonia using API kits is into 2.55 ppm nitrite and then 3.44pm nitrate.
 
So some simple math says if you dosed 3 ppm of ammonia and 2 ppm was converted it would have made 5.1  ppm of nitrite and if there is .25 to .5 ppm left, that means 90-95% was converted. That would mean 9.3 - 9.8 ppm of nitrate. As you can see the numbers don't make much sense as reported. Having about 30 ppm of nitrate in the tap would explain that part. But that test is so flakey I hate using it for any serious stuff.
 
The nitrite bacs which reproduce slower than the ammonia bacs and start later than they do, are the reverse in your case it would appear.
 
The good part is ammonia got lower. In the next day or two it should drop more. It was 3 on the 28th and 1 on the 2nd, it should close in on 0 soon. You will need to redose the same amount you did the first time. I would hope nitrites would rise as the ammonia drops. Please test for both the next two days and report the numbers please.

 

[orange shark]

Hi TTA,
 
Thanks for the response. I agree that the Nitrite reading doesn't make sense, I was hoping that this was just a bit of a lag and it would show up quite soon!
 
I will also test the Nitrate in the tap water to see if it is indeed 30ppm like suggested above, will let you know the results from today's tests later.
 
Thanks,
OS

 

[orange shark]

OK so I have tested today, and i've found the missing Nitrite:
 
Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite between the 2 and 5 markers (although definitely closer to 5)
pH 7.4
 
I also tested the Nitrate in the tap water but it returned a 0 reading which can't be right...
 
OS
 
edit: quick question...i'm aware that i'll be soon re-dosing with Ammonia as soon as I drop below 0.75ppm, but in the guide it says re-dose the full amount...does this re-dose mean to get up to 3ppm again (meaning dose 2.25ppm to top up) or dosing the full amount again meaning i'll be at 3.75ppm?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

"Record the actual amount of ammonia you add for the initial full dose as it will serve as the base amount for calculating a later maintenance addition."
 
"If at any time you test and ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm, it is time to add more ammonia. Add the same full amount as you did the first time. Now, begin to test the ammonia and nitrite levels every other day."
 
I never write addition amounts in ppm because it is only the first addition that you can test and get that level. The others you may not be able to as they may be a bit higher due to left over ammonia or because as soon as it hits the water, some is being converted before you do the test. So I say to record the amount you added initially rather than the ppm.
 
My guess is its just about time for you to add that next ammonia- all you have to do is read the ammonia as clearly under one but also over .5 ppm and you are pretty much there. That direction is intended to insure not only is ammonia dropping nicely but that it is being converted to nitrite. Its a double check
 
The most nitrite each 3 ppm of ammonia can make would be 7.65 ppm. So for two additions the max is 15.3 ppm. The danger line is at 16.4. But long before the nitrite can get even close, the nitrite bacs will have begun doing their job.

 

[orange shark]

Hi TTA
 
Tested yesterday, Ammonia was still at 1ppm. Todays results:
 
Ammonia 0.25ppm
Nitrite >5ppm
Nitrate 80ppm
pH 7.4
 
Shocked that the Ammonia just shot down since yesterday, but i've re-dosed with Ammonia now
 
OS

 

[orange shark]

So a bit confused today...

Yesterday I topped up on ammonia, and after waiting an hour to test the tank it showed that I had accidentally under doses the Ammonia (it was 2ppm), so I topped it up with a little more ammonia but admittedly forgot to retest to check the level.

So I tested 10 minutes ago and it is showing 1ppm, I'm confused because it took 18 days to drop from 3ppm to 0.25ppm but has dropped a minimum of 1ppm in 1 day...

OS

 

[TwoTankAmin]

It is not all that confusing. One day one you had almost no bacteria. Adding ammonia feeds them and because it creates excess food, they have energy left to reproduce, and they do. But it takes time for this to happen. If you had but a single bacterium in a tank when it split in two, you had two. When they divide you have 4, then 8 etc.
 
So when you added your 2nd ammonia addition, you had a whole lot more bacteria than on day one. More bacteria handles more ammonia faster- simple.
 
But you also are supposed to add the 2nd dose of ammonia based on the amount, not the ppm, you added initially. For example, if one adds 3.5 ml to get the initial 3 ppm, then that is the amount you add the next time. Once ythe cyclung has begun the 3 ppm becomes meaningless. The cycling directions are quite clear that one adds an amount of ammonia and not dosing to a given ppms once you have done the first dosing.You have just taught yourself, and other readers, why you do it this way. A well established bacterial colony goes to work on the ammonia right away. If you try to dose and test you end up overdosing. Nowhere in the cycling directions will you find the expression"top up". It is not there for a very good reason.
 
If you read the cycling directions to the end you will see the final step to know you are cycled is the ability to clear 3 ppm of ammonia all the way to nitrate so that 24 hours after adding it you test 0 for both ammonia and nitrite. If your fully cycled tank can handle 3 ppm overnight, why would you be confused that it can handle 1/3 of that in a day on the way to the 3 ppm?