72 Bow Front stocking / Angelfish

[FreckyB]

Hello,

I have recently setup a 72 gal bow front which is currently stocked as follows:

12 Rummy nose tetras
4 Sterbai Corys
1 Oto (bought 7 after 24 hours 1 remains)
2 German Blue Rams (guy at the store said they were a pair but I am not so sure)

I am running 2x Eheim 2217s and the tank is lightly planted with small gravel and some spiderwood.

The original plan for this tank was to eventually add discus, but the more and more I read and the more issues I have (see Otos above) the more I am thinking I may need some more time before I tackle a discus tank.

The more I have been watching the German blue rams the more I have been falling in love with just watching them move around an interact with each other and was considering either putting in a pair of electric blue or golden rams or a pair of Kribensis. Would it be okay having a couple pairs of dwarf cichlids? There is a lot of cover in the tank and a couple stone caves. I would prefer Kribs but if that isn't recommended some more rams would be pretty great as well.

Since I think I will be holding off on Discus I was wondering about adding some Angelfish as a show piece to this tank on top of the cichlids and the other current stocking. Is this doable? If so how many would work? 4? 6?. I am looking at adding a Zebra Pleco as obviously my Oto experiment has been a complete and utter disaster. (My water parameters were text book before I went to the store and I brought in a sample today for them to test and they said the same thing, I know they say store bought otos can be prone to die off but I wasn't expecting anything like this.)

Here is my ideal stocking:

6 x Sterbai Cory
2 x German Blue Ram
1 x Zebra Pleco
2 x Kribensis (or another type of ram)
4-6 x Angelfish
12 x Rummynose Tetra

Thoughts, suggestions or warnings? Is this even doable?

Thanks so much for any guidance you can offer, I am not a complete newbie to the hobby but have never tackled a tank this size and am a little overwhelmed.

 

[Byron]

There are some significant issues here, depending upon the tank dimensions. If the tank length (end to end across mid-tank) is at least 48 inches (4 feet, or 120 cm) angelfish (or discus) are an option. This is only dealing with tank size, there are other important issues I'll explain.

Angelfish are a shoaling species, so there must be no fewer than five or six. The only exception is a bonded mated pair. A group of this species will quickly develop an hierarchy, and fewer than five almost never works especially if one is a male. The more there are in the shoal, the less chance of a "bully" killing others. In the habitat fish can get out of each other's way as needed, but this option does not exist in any aquarium unless it is very large and that is not the case here. Second issue, spawning; a group of five or more angelfish will likely have male/female fish, and a pair may well form. If this occurs, again there is not really sufficient space here for the fish to deal with this, and you may have to re-home all but the pair.

Neotropical cichlids generally should be kept at one species in any given tank, with very few exceptions. If the pair of Blue Rams are working, I would not push your luck by adding any more cichlids. I do not know your level of knowledge, but in case you are not aware of it, the blue (common) ram needs warmth, at least 80F (27C) or it will not live anywhere close to its normal 4-5 years. Not all tropical fish can tolerate this high a temperature permanently, but fortunately those you have can, so that is not a problem. Angelfish don't need this much warmth (wild caught do, but not commercially raised fish) but they can manage in it, though this is frankly not advisable as warmer water does affect the metabolism of fish and this is something of a risk that is better avoided.

Otos are very sensitive fish, and often arrive at stores nearly starved as they only eat algae and rareely get any during transport. If sufficient natural algae is present, they usually survive and will in time learn to feed from sinking algae-based foods, but initially this seldom occurs. All otos are wild caught, so far as I know. Obviously there could have been other issues with the otos but this is common.

Hypancistrus zebra is omnivorous, not an algae-eater, if that was your thinkking in having one of these in stead of otos.

 

[utahfish]

I agree with the above poster. Rams and Angels are all territorial nice thing about pairing Rams with Angels is Angels inhabit upper and mid portion of tank and Rams inhabit bottom to mid. 46 is more suitable for angels as its a taller tank where as rams would appreciate more floor length. Also a Pair of Rams if they are paired will claim and defend a bottom section of the tank, corys inhabit the bottom as well and while corys can defend themselve Rams wont want to share space with them. If your Rams are two males each will claim a territory on either side of the tank defend those spaces. Rummys are a good chouce with angels or rams as a dither fish but they also enjoy longer tanks over taller tanks because they shoal back and forth back and forth. As for your pleco, depends on what you want a pleco for?. Most plecos dont eat much algae and create more waste than theyre worth. Bristlenose which are popular in smaller tanks get about 5 inches long but eat wood and not much algae. Rubber lips get about 5 inches but again arent great algae eaters, clown plecos get around 3 inches but again dont eat a ton of algae. So if youre wanting a fish for algae cleanup, id skip the plecos. Best algae cleaners ive found are nerite snails and amano shrimp, though rams and angels will eat shrimp so youd be better with nerites, which ive kept with rams and angels.

 

[FreckyB]

There are some significant issues here, depending upon the tank dimensions. If the tank length (end to end across mid-tank) is at least 48 inches (4 feet, or 120 cm) angelfish (or discus) are an option. This is only dealing with tank size, there are other important issues I'll explain.

Angelfish are a shoaling species, so there must be no fewer than five or six. The only exception is a bonded mated pair. A group of this species will quickly develop an hierarchy, and fewer than five almost never works especially if one is a male. The more there are in the shoal, the less chance of a "bully" killing others. In the habitat fish can get out of each other's way as needed, but this option does not exist in any aquarium unless it is very large and that is not the case here. Second issue, spawning; a group of five or more angelfish will likely have male/female fish, and a pair may well form. If this occurs, again there is not really sufficient space here for the fish to deal with this, and you may have to re-home all but the pair.

Neotropical cichlids generally should be kept at one species in any given tank, with very few exceptions. If the pair of Blue Rams are working, I would not push your luck by adding any more cichlids. I do not know your level of knowledge, but in case you are not aware of it, the blue (common) ram needs warmth, at least 80F (27C) or it will not live anywhere close to its normal 4-5 years. Not all tropical fish can tolerate this high a temperature permanently, but fortunately those you have can, so that is not a problem. Angelfish don't need this much warmth (wild caught do, but not commercially raised fish) but they can manage in it, though this is frankly not advisable as warmer water does affect the metabolism of fish and this is something of a risk that is better avoided.

Otos are very sensitive fish, and often arrive at stores nearly starved as they only eat algae and rareely get any during transport. If sufficient natural algae is present, they usually survive and will in time learn to feed from sinking algae-based foods, but initially this seldom occurs. All otos are wild caught, so far as I know. Obviously there could have been other issues with the otos but this is common.

Hypancistrus zebra is omnivorous, not an algae-eater, if that was your thinkking in having one of these in stead of otos.

Thanks a ton for the help! Lots of great info.

The tank is 48 W x (12 at the corners then bows to 16-17 in the middle) by 22" (I believe) deep.

Sounds like I will hold off on more cichlids as the ones I have seem like they couldn't be happier. Would a birstlenose pleco do what I am looking for?

As far as the temp goes, that is why I had gone with the fish I chose as I was initially planning for this tank to be at the higher temps that discus require.

 

[FreckyB]

I agree with the above poster. Rams and Angels are all territorial nice thing about pairing Rams with Angels is Angels inhabit upper and mid portion of tank and Rams inhabit bottom to mid. 46 is more suitable for angels as its a taller tank where as rams would appreciate more floor length. Also a Pair of Rams if they are paired will claim and defend a bottom section of the tank, corys inhabit the bottom as well and while corys can defend themselve Rams wont want to share space with them. If your Rams are two males each will claim a territory on either side of the tank defend those spaces. Rummys are a good chouce with angels or rams as a dither fish but they also enjoy longer tanks over taller tanks because they shoal back and forth back and forth. As for your pleco, depends on what you want a pleco for?. Most plecos dont eat much algae and create more waste than theyre worth. Bristlenose which are popular in smaller tanks get about 5 inches long but eat wood and not much algae. Rubber lips get about 5 inches but again arent great algae eaters, clown plecos get around 3 inches but again dont eat a ton of algae. So if youre wanting a fish for algae cleanup, id skip the plecos. Best algae cleaners ive found are nerite snails and amano shrimp, though rams and angels will eat shrimp so youd be better with nerites, which ive kept with rams and angels.

I had heard that about the plecos creating more waste then they are worth which is why I chose the otos figured they might be better. I might give them another go from another LFS and see if the results differ. So with a tank that is 48 long by 20ish tall is this not enough space to keep the angels and rams separate? If that is the case with the two male rams then I don't think that is what I have. They aren't glued to each other but they will interact and swim around with each other and don't seem to be territorial.

Thanks for the help!

 

[utahfish]

Hey. frecky sorry i misread your tank size. For some reason i though you said 46 gallon not 70+ thats plenty long for shoalers probably even enough for rams and angels, i dont know about discus as well, ive never kept discus, too expensive for my liking but i know they need really warm water 80+ degrees.

 

[FreckyB]

Hey. frecky sorry i misread your tank size. For some reason i though you said 46 gallon not 70+ thats plenty long for shoalers probably even enough for rams and angels, i dont know about discus as well, ive never kept discus, too expensive for my liking but i know they need really warm water 80+ degrees.

Phewww

I was thinking wow I thought this was a big tank. That makes me feel a little better, I have heard of people using 72 BF tanks for discus but the cost and pickiness of them has kind of made me think I will hold off. Learn some lessons with other fish that I don't have to drain my life savings to replace. Next thing with angels if I do decide to go that route are you okay mixing breeds in that 5 or 6? Or do you want them all to be one type?

 

[utahfish]

Ive only ever had a pair of Angels, and they were different kinds, one laid eggs then killed the other and then ate the eggs???
Fish are weird! Im probably not the person to give advice on angels.

 

[Byron]

The tank size is fine for a group of 5-6 angelfish as I said, but just be cognizant of issues that are likely (probable) to occur, like spawning. It is not always easy to just remove 3-4 fish and do...what? with them.

The common rams would be OK with the angelfish, or should be. But I would not consider other species of cichlids. There is lots of space for "dither" fish, groups of peaceful shoaling tetras, etc.

I always seem to post this video, but it shows how angelfish should be kept in a home aquarium. The tank in this video (not mine, by the way) is 200cm (almost 7 feet) in length, and in the comments the owner says he considers it too small and intends a larger tank. But, the fish are interacting exactly the way angelfish should. If you observe them you will see the pushing and shoving but no one gets bitten, and that is solely because of the number (11) and the space.

 

[FreckyB]

The tank size is fine for a group of 5-6 angelfish as I said, but just be cognizant of issues that are likely (probable) to occur, like spawning. It is not always easy to just remove 3-4 fish and do...what? with them.

The common rams would be OK with the angelfish, or should be. But I would not consider other species of cichlids. There is lots of space for "dither" fish, groups of peaceful shoaling tetras, etc.

I always seem to post this video, but it shows how angelfish should be kept in a home aquarium. The tank in this video (not mine, by the way) is 200cm (almost 7 feet) in length, and in the comments the owner says he considers it too small and intends a larger tank. But, the fish are interacting exactly the way angelfish should. If you observe them you will see the pushing and shoving but no one gets bitten, and that is solely because of the number (11) and the space.

How what a beautiful tank, I really appreciate your help. I will definitely continue to research angelfish before I make a decision but you have helped immensely.

If I was to decide against angels (and discus) would you have any other suggestions for a showpiece fish(s) for the tank. I would rather not just have a tank of schooling tetras.

 

[Byron]

How what a beautiful tank, I really appreciate your help. I will definitely continue to research angelfish before I make a decision but you have helped immensely.

If I was to decide against angels (and discus) would you have any other suggestions for a showpiece fish(s) for the tank. I would rather not just have a tank of schooling tetras.

We haven't discussed water parameters (other than temperature) yet, and it would help to know these. GH (general hardness) and pH especially, for your source water. Recommending soft water fish species if you have hard water, or vice versa, won't help much. If you don't already know these, you may be able to obtain the GH and pH from your water authority, check their website.

 

[FreckyB]

We haven't discussed water parameters (other than temperature) yet, and it would help to know these. GH (general hardness) and pH especially, for your source water. Recommending soft water fish species if you have hard water, or vice versa, won't help much. If you don't already know these, you may be able to obtain the GH and pH from your water authority, check their website.

Just took a sample and tested PH and hardness
PH was 6.8
GH was 160 mg/L
KH was 120 mg/L

Obviously didn't have a chance to let the sample sit but I am hoping it is close enough.

 

[Retired Viking]

Many years ago I had a pair of angelfish for several years one grew to around 6 inches the other was around 4. They were constantly by each others side. I had them in a tall 55 gallon tank. Really liked having them but lost both at the same time. Water issues.

 

[Byron]

Just took a sample and tested PH and hardness
PH was 6.8
GH was 160 mg/L
KH was 120 mg/L

Obviously didn't have a chance to let the sample sit but I am hoping it is close enough.

GH is on the border of soft/moderate so that gives you a number of options. The pH is important but less so than the GH, and it would be a good idea to pin this down. If this was tap water, it may contain dissolved CO2 which causes a lower and inaccurate test, but if the CO2 is zero it may be accurate. You can let a glass of tap water sit 24 hours and re-test. If this was tank water though, it doesn't need this and will be accurate as of the time you tested.

I will move ahead with a few ideas for more "centrepiece" fish as asked. Pearl Gourami [Trichopodus lerii] is a species I often suggest; a group of five or seven, with more females than males, would work. Gourami are much like angelfish in temperament and behaviours, by which I mean males are territorial (the degree varies with the species, Pearls are usually much more peaceful than some others), and like angelfish they are quiet, sedate, non-active swimmers. Pearl Gourami are OK, but the similar-sized Blue Gourami can be a real terror, killing every fish in tyhe tank. This species unfortunately is often available and stores fail to warn customers. Blue, Gold, Cosby, Marble, Three-Spot...these common names are all the same species [Trichopodus trichopterus] which has these variations so all should be avoided. There are other similarly-nasty species. The Pearls are a beauty.

The nice thing about a group of Pearls is that they will inhabit the same level as would angelfish, mid to upper, and that is beneficial as this is not an easy level to find quiet fish. Comparable shoaling fish among the tetras will be primarily mid to lower level. Rasboras are mid-level and suit gourami nicely.

 

[FreckyB]

Hmm I've never really looked into Gouramis and the pearls are actually a really nice looking fish. I'll start doing some research. Thanks for the suggestion.

The water test was straight from the tank.