40 Days, Cycle Won't Start, Help!

[daizeUK]

I started a fishless cycle on 10 December and now 40 days later there is still no drop in ammonia. When I started the cycle I was prepared to be patient, well I have been lol, but patience is turning into despair now!
I'll explain exactly what has been happening, with lots of pictures, so hopefully somebody can help me out with this.

In brief: Ammonia has remained constant at 4ppm almost since the start, nitrites have gradually accumulated over the course of weeks but never risen above 0.25ppm. I have conducted one complete water change in the hopes of kickstarting the cycle, but still no ammonia drop.

I think it's clear that there are a small number of A-bacs in my tank (hence the gradually accumulating nitrites) but they are being inhibited and unable to reproduce. I am at a total loss as to what could be inhibiting them since all my tank conditions are optimum: hard water, high pH and high temperature.

Here is a breakdown of exactly what I have done:

7 Dec: Filled tank using water dechlorinated with Interpet Tapsafe to recommended dose. Turned on Interpet PF2 filter and heater to 26°C. pH after 24 hours was 8.0. Tap nitrates at 50ppm. Left to stand for 3 days.

10 Dec: Began adding ammonia using Waterlife's BioMature at recommended dose of 2ml a day. Added Interpet Filter Start bacteria culture at recommended dose of 2ml every 2 days. Tank pH 8.2-8.3.

15 Dec: Achieved 4ppm ammonia. Stopped dosing BioMature.

17 Dec: Ammonia steady at 4ppm. Increased tank temp to 28°C. Tank GH at 16°d, KH at 10-15°d.

21 Dec (Day 12): Ammonia reading looks to be about 3ppm. Not sure if it has dropped, I begin to doubt that I have been reading it right all along, so I dose more BioMature to bring it up to 4ppm.

22 Dec: Ammonia remains steady at 4ppm.

29 Dec (Day 20): Nitrites have gradually accumulated to the point where they are clearly visible on a test. I only realise after comparing photographs that nitrites have been slowly rising and I just didn't notice. I gain hope, expecting them to spike soon.

Slow increase of nitrites:

3 Jan (Day 25): Nitrites have not spiked and remain under 0.25ppm. pH is still 8.1. Ammonia still 4ppm. I top up evaporated water with 8L of dechlorinated tap water.

6 Jan (Day 28): No appreciable change in ammonia or nitrites. I conclude that the cycle has stalled and take advice to perform a 100% water change and start again. During the water change I keep the filter in a bucket of warm tank water. I add the recommended dose of Tapsafe dechlorinator to new tank water and add a few fish flakes inside the filter. Begin dosing BioMature and Filter Start again.

9 Jan: Ammonia reads 3ppm and I stop dosing BioMature because the fish flakes should add more ammonia. Nitrites are already gradually creeping up again, faster than they did the first time, but still by tiny amounts.

11 Jan (Day 33): Ammonia 4ppm. I begin to wonder if I have underdosed dechlorinator and chloramine may be inhibiting the A-bacs that are obviously trying to establish in my tank. I add an extra 50% dose of dechlorinator (it does not contain ammonia remover and I only found out later that I can overdose it safely). If chloramine was the problem, then I expect my A-bacs to recover and cause a nitrite spike in about 7 days.

18 Jan (Day 40): Ammonia 4ppm, nitrites 0.25ppm or less. It has been 12 days since 100% water change, 7 days since extra dechlorinator and still nothing is happening.

Today's results :

There has been no cloudy water and no bacterial blooms, so no heterotrophic bacteria to inhibit the nitrifiers. I've even had my tank lights on for a few hours every day and there's no major algae growth either. It's almost as if my tank is completely inhospitable to life!

I'm starting to find it a bit upsetting because I put so much effort into researching how to do a fishless cycle and I don't understand why it isn't working for me.

This is what the tank looks like:

It contains some plastic plants, log & coral (all fake and purchased from Pets at Home), brown aquarium sand and some golden sand which was previously outside in a sandpit.

It's situated in the kitchen near a table which gets cleaned regularly with spray cleaners (I don't think the spray could be affecting the tank from that distance?)

I know I'm clutching at straws!


What should I do?

a) Strip the entire tank (sand, ornaments, fake plants) and try again with a bare tank, in case something is leaching nasties?

b) Put my chemical carbon media back in the filter (I took it out before cycling as advised by the fishless cycling guide) in the hope it might help remove any contaminants in the water?

c) Change all my chemical brands and try again with different ammonia, dechlorinator and bacteria boost in case one of them isn't working?

d) Try to beg some mature media from a fish store (something I really wanted to avoid because of risk of transferred diseases)?

e) Give up on fishless and try a silent cycle with lots of plants (this scares me because I'm not green-fingered at the best of times, my tank only has 15W bulbs and I'm not overly fond of heavily planted tanks anyway)?

f) Just keep waiting and hoping....

g) Get some hardy fish and do a fish-in cycle... this isn't even an option. If nitrifiers are struggling to colonise my tank then it's doubly unfair to dump some poor fish in it, so there's no way I'm doing it.

h) Any other ideas?

Please help!

?

 

[the_lock_man]

I would suggest dumping the Biomature, in case there's something in it that's interfering, use Homebase Ammonia, and see if you can get some mature media as well. Tapsafe is fine as a conditioner. You could also try leaving out the FilterStart.

 

[David J]

Hi Daize

Im sorry to hear that you are still having problems. As you know, I am no expert and im hopefully nearing the end of my first ever fishless cycle. Reading through what you have done so far the only thing I could suggest is the same as the lock man and forget the products you have been using and use the Homebase Ammonia (other brands are available) rather than ones designed specifically for cycling, strange as it sounds.

If I were you, i would do that and completely start again, doing everything the same but without the products you have been using. As you have already stated, I would avoid the fish in cycle, although it may still be more successful than what has happened so far, its not fair on the fish.

I feel your pain. Like me, you read and read and read until you can't read anymore. You get excited about getting the fish and you hit a brick wall. You have everything but the fish. Very annoying. Why not phone around a few pet shops and ask if they would be willing to donate some media? Worth the cost of a few phone calls even if they say no.

Keep us posted, best of luck

David

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Definitely stop using those two products. Do as large a waterchange as you can and then allow the tank to run for about 1/2 a day and test and record your params for pH and KH especially. The next thing I am going to suggest you do will tick off a few folks. Go here, read and then do exactly what it says http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling/how-to-start

I know he sells products, but he is the man when it comes to the microbiology behind cycling. If you must use a bacterial starter, use his or Tetra;'s and ignore almost all the rest. I have cycled a few tanks using his bacteria and ammonium chloride which I now prefer to ammonia. There is a Dutch company that does ammonia oxidizing bacteria that works as well, its called ABIL but I do not know if it is available for hobbyists rather than just the aquaculture and water treatment industries.

It is much easier and cheaper to get some seed material from another hobbyist to help jump start your cycle.

Note when you read at that link that he says to use less ammonia and to dose it less often than you are going to read in the cycling articles and posts here or most other general aquarium sites . All I can say is trust his advice over that of most others and you will be fine.

Please note that when he says not to exceed 5 ppm he is using the Ammonia-Nitrogen scale (and clearly states so) and not the API (etc.) type kits total ion scale. That 5 ppm of Ammonia-N is equal to about 6.5 ppm on any test kit that is reading the total ions. The same applies to measuring the initial doses he suggests. Ammonia-N readings will always be lower than those for total ammonia inons.

 

[the_lock_man]

The next thing I am going to suggest you do will tick off a few folks.

Yeah, but you do enjoy it....

 

[Ralphw62]

just a thought take some tap water in separate clean container a gallon or so test it.....take some of that sand from the "sand pit" add itto tap water wait a bit and test it... see if it changes you water.....what did you do with the sand from the sandpit before adding it to tank?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I would suggest dumping the Biomature, in case there's something in it that's interfering, use Homebase Ammonia, and see if you can get some mature media as well. Tapsafe is fine as a conditioner. You could also try leaving out the FilterStart.

+1

 

[daizeUK]

Thanks very much for your replies everyone.

Following your advice I have started looking for new products to try. TTA : at this point I would be more than happy to throw myself at Dr Tim's mercy, but unfortunately his products are a bit harder to get hold of in the UK. I've contacted his approved UK supplier to see when they will be back in stock, I wouldn't honestly trust anyone else to buy it from since it has such a short shelf-life.

If I can't get the Dr Tim's stuff then I'm thinking of trying Kleenoff ammonia and I'll see if I can get some Tetra Safestart.
Actually, scrud that. I can get Dr Tim's ammonium chloride for the same price as the Kleenoff with free delivery. It might be a tiny bottle but hey at least it will be easy to store!
[edit: haha I love the overzealous profanity filter... scrud! s-c-r-a-p]

I'll start over with the new products and see how that goes for a week or two. If I still get nothing then I will start begging my local fish shops for some mature media.

Do as large a waterchange as you can and then allow the tank to run for about 1/2 a day and test and record your params for pH and KH especially.

Why is my KH so important? It's odd but I have noticed it dropping over the last couple of weeks, it comes out of the tap at 15-20°d but has dropped down to 6-10°d in the tank. My GH has remained constant at 16°d. I didn't pay it much attention because it's only a strip test and I thought it would be inaccurate. My pH has also dropped slightly from 8.3 initially (after sitting for 24 hours) down to 7.9 recently.

what did you do with the sand from the sandpit before adding it to tank?

My kid's sandpit was almost empty (they like to pour sand into my flowerpots) and had been flooded with rainwater for several days. I did have some suspicions that it might have brought some bugs into the aquarium.
I washed the seven hells out of my shop-bought brown aquarium sand, it took at least two hours to make it run clear. The golden playpit sand ran clear first time. I assumed it had already been cleaned by the rainwater, so I just rinsed it a couple of times and put it in the tank.
I think testing it would be a good idea, but not sure what I would be testing it for?

David - yep you know exactly how I feel!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Definitely stop using those two products. Do as large a waterchange as you can and then allow the tank to run for about 1/2 a day and test and record your params for pH and KH especially. The next thing I am going to suggest you do will tick off a few folks. Go here, read and then do exactly what it says http/www.drtimsaqu...ng/how-to-start

I know he sells products, but he is the man when it comes to the microbiology behind cycling. If you must use a bacterial starter, use his or Tetra;'s and ignore almost all the rest. I have cycled a few tanks using his bacteria and ammonium chloride which I now prefer to ammonia. There is a Dutch company that does ammonia oxidizing bacteria that works as well, its called ABIL but I do not know if it is available for hobbyists rather than just the aquaculture and water treatment industries.

It is much easier and cheaper to get some seed material from another hobbyist to help jump start your cycle.

Note when you read at that link that he says to use less ammonia and to dose it less often than you are going to read in the cycling articles and posts here or most other general aquarium sites . All I can say is trust his advice over that of most others and you will be fine.

Please note that when he says not to exceed 5 ppm he is using the Ammonia-Nitrogen scale (and clearly states so) and not the API (etc.) type kits total ion scale. That 5 ppm of Ammonia-N is equal to about 6.5 ppm on any test kit that is reading the total ions. The same applies to measuring the initial doses he suggests. Ammonia-N readings will always be lower than those for total ammonia inons.

I always suggest following the manufacturer's advice for how to use a product, unless what they are telling you is pure nonsense - like change your filter media every month, etc. ;-) Dr. Tim should know how his product works best, so following his dosing advice makes the most sense.

I've tried the Tetra product and had no success with the cycling process - I mean, it cycled, but not in a "shorter" period of time. It was very much the same as most others. Maybe that's because i dosed 5ppm ammonia (ion measurement from API test kit), or maybe its because the new Tetra product isn't as good as the original (Biospira, which required refrigeration).


TTA really believes in the One and Only product from Dr. Tim. I've never tested it, so I can't speak on that. TTA does know his stuff - or where to find the stuff!

kH is a measure of the carbonate hardness - which buffers your water against pH drops.

http/www.theaquariumwiki.com/KH

 

[paradiddle]

Also if thats the same 64L "fishbox" tank that i have from pets at home, id advice you to replace the filter before even starting a cycle. IT IS USELESS.
the guy advised me when buying it to get a fluval u2 which is what i did, 2 weeks later after that filter cut out. They were good enough to knock down the u2 for me...

I would suggest dumping the Biomature, in case there's something in it that's interfering, use Homebase Ammonia, and see if you can get some mature media as well. Tapsafe is fine as a conditioner. You could also try leaving out the FilterStart.

Also a heads up, homebase no longer stock ammonia, in fact most UK shops are not allowed to stock it since people made house hold bombs with it.
You can order it online from ebay, the one im using atm is a jeyes make, white bottle red cap, around £6 inc. postage.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

KH is your carbonate hardness. It is a buffer for pH. But it is also a source of inorganic carbon for the bacteria. The AOB need ammonia, oxygen and carbon to do their thing. Because the bacteria normally consume NH3, it is helpful to keep one's pH up during cycling to keep them well fed. And it is also why they say not to let your pH get much below 7.0 as this will stall the cycle.

Cycling does occur at acid pH, but it takes a pretty long time to get the needed acid tolerant strains to colonize compared with the "normal" cycling in most tanks.

 

[daizeUK]

Oh

AquariumWiki:

KH is consumed by nitrifying bacteria 24/7 so either your substrate generates more, you perform water changes to supplement it or you add chemicals to add KH to your aquarium as otherwise it causes a pH crash/shock.
...
KH is also reduced by the action of nitrifying bacteria and by water surface agitation

I didn't know that. So that explains why my KH has been dropping, the A-bacs have been using it up? Yet there's not enough of them to use up the ammonia... lol
As the KH lowers I guess that in turn lowers my pH

I also have my filter blowing bubbles like the clappers to get as much oxygen into the water as possible, so it all fits.

But I'm still not sure why TTA said I should measure KH and pH... am I supposed to do something about it?
I've heard of water changes to save fish from old tank syndrome, but never thought it might matter for a tank of bacteria.

@paradiddle, yep the Jeyes is the Kleenoff one I was looking at I think. I've had trouble finding ammonia in stores too, though to be fair I only checked the websites and other people have said they can still find it in-store. Maybe some stores are still selling off old stock.

edit: Sorry Amin, posts got crossed. It sounds like I'm fairly safe with such naturally high pH and KH then.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

You measure the KH to make sure you have enough and you measure the pH to be sure it doesn't drop thereby slowing the cycle. KH is performing two jobs- carbon for the bacteria and then helping to hold up the pH.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

You can boost both the pH and kH to help the cycle by adding baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to the water during the cycle. Add 1 tsp per 5 gallons - wait 10 minutes and test the pH. Once the pH is up to 8.2-8.4 you'll be at the optimum pH for the bacterial growth - plus you'll have increased the buffering capacity of the water and provided sufficient carbonate that the bacteria should be very "happy" with the conditions.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Just because I can't resist throwing in another scrud of info. If you can find calcium carbonate, you avoid adding the Sodium ions to the tank. Unless one is doing sw or a rift lake tank, you really do not want the sodium part in the water. So if you do use the sodium bicarbonate, be sure to do a big water change or two at the end of the cycle to get it out of the tank before adding fish.

daize- if I could send it to you I would ship you a cycled sponge. I could even send an entirely cycled filter. The bacteria from DrTim is good for 6-12 months depending how it is stored. The bigger danger is along the way it is allowed to freeze or to get above about 104F for any length of time. This will kill the bacteria. However, the bottle all have a date on them to indicate when the bacteria went in. While you can't know how carefully they were shipped or maintained by the vendor, you can know if they are too old. Note., too old doesn't mean they wont work at all, just that they wont work as well. The bacteria do not all die off at once from the age factor, so even when added beyond the presumed optimal dates, they can still help more than adding nothing.

Oh, one last suggestion. The bacteria are photosensitive, so keep the tank lights off during the cycle unless you have live plants in the tank. This is most important when adding bottled bacteria as it will be free floating initially. Just one more way to tilt the odds in your favor.