3 Dead And 4 Missing Over Night
- Thread starter rodg98133
- Start date
Just been watching my fish and one of my other angels i think is dying. It was lying on the bottom the all of a sudden it was swimming round really fast, upside down, chnaging direction suddenly then fell back down to the bottom and is now sat there. My dwarf gouramis keep picking at it then it swims off again after about a minute. Does this indicate anything different?
Tommy Gun
Fish Crazy
No offense to you Wilder - I know you are well respected around here as the "ailment expert" and have even helped me out once - but there are a myriad of reasons OTHER than disease/illness that these fish could be dying from.
First, I also think there is something wrong with your test results - either you aren't testing and trying to say you are, or your tank isn't cycled. I don't see any other reason for those test results unless your tank is planted.
If your tank is planted - and especially if your fish are dying at night mostly - you probably have a gas exchange problem and there is not enough oxygen for your fish to breathe because both plants and your fish will be using it at night. Getting the surface water moving via any method you prefer is always a good idea and would probably be something to look at in any case.
The odd behavior that you have noticed in your fish is also indicative of ammonia and/or nitrite poisoning. When you do not know what is going on, the best thing you can do is a water change. Period. There is not one reason why your doing a 10 to 25% water change can hurt your fish....and if you notice improvement, do a larger water change. the only time a large water change will hurt you is if you have been neglecting the tank for a while and the water chemistry will be massively changed from the water change....and if that is the case, do smaller, partial water changes a couple times a day and you should be fine. In any case, I don't think you really have much more to lose anyways.
You adding a bunch of meds create the exact same chemistry changes anyways...and would also reduce oxygen levels in the water as well; so walk into them with great care. Some antibiotics are likely to kill your beneficial bacteria as well. Using broad spectrum antibiotics is risky and even if very effective, I noticed that many of us forget to realize that our tank are basically un-cycled afterwords and the fish die anyways. Unfortunately, when you are treating blindly, a narrow spectrum anti-biotic that will cause less harm to nitrifying bacteria may not solve your problem. This is important information....very important.
Keep in mind that sometimes ammonia is not easily detected by your, or your LFS's test kits. Ammonium is usually more abundant when the pH is lower than 7.0, but some products also create ammonium. It is less toxic, but not non-toxic.
You might be able to help with any possible nitrite poisoning by adding a small amount of salt - in this case meaning sodium chloride (a.k.a. NaCl), like is found in table salt, kosher salt, pickling salt, and the all-too-famous aquarium salt. A low dose will help your fishes' blood carry oxygen more effectively in the presence of nitrite but you also need to increase gas exchange as well.
If you clean your filters, be sure that you are rising any biological filter media in some tank water (that you have removed and then discard) versus rinsing it in tap water. A large water chemistry change will harm them as well and I assume you want to keep them.
The last thing you want to do is give up. Your fish do have a strong ability to fight off most ailments on their own if they are healthy enough so your #1 priority should be to ensure that your currently living and apparently healthy fish stay that way.
Again, I mean no offense to anyone and I realize that it is always easy to go running to a store shelf when we notice problems within our fish....but those products are usually for advanced problems and are of no help if we don't have the basics covered first; starting with water chemistry.
First, I also think there is something wrong with your test results - either you aren't testing and trying to say you are, or your tank isn't cycled. I don't see any other reason for those test results unless your tank is planted.
If your tank is planted - and especially if your fish are dying at night mostly - you probably have a gas exchange problem and there is not enough oxygen for your fish to breathe because both plants and your fish will be using it at night. Getting the surface water moving via any method you prefer is always a good idea and would probably be something to look at in any case.
The odd behavior that you have noticed in your fish is also indicative of ammonia and/or nitrite poisoning. When you do not know what is going on, the best thing you can do is a water change. Period. There is not one reason why your doing a 10 to 25% water change can hurt your fish....and if you notice improvement, do a larger water change. the only time a large water change will hurt you is if you have been neglecting the tank for a while and the water chemistry will be massively changed from the water change....and if that is the case, do smaller, partial water changes a couple times a day and you should be fine. In any case, I don't think you really have much more to lose anyways.
You adding a bunch of meds create the exact same chemistry changes anyways...and would also reduce oxygen levels in the water as well; so walk into them with great care. Some antibiotics are likely to kill your beneficial bacteria as well. Using broad spectrum antibiotics is risky and even if very effective, I noticed that many of us forget to realize that our tank are basically un-cycled afterwords and the fish die anyways. Unfortunately, when you are treating blindly, a narrow spectrum anti-biotic that will cause less harm to nitrifying bacteria may not solve your problem. This is important information....very important.
Keep in mind that sometimes ammonia is not easily detected by your, or your LFS's test kits. Ammonium is usually more abundant when the pH is lower than 7.0, but some products also create ammonium. It is less toxic, but not non-toxic.
You might be able to help with any possible nitrite poisoning by adding a small amount of salt - in this case meaning sodium chloride (a.k.a. NaCl), like is found in table salt, kosher salt, pickling salt, and the all-too-famous aquarium salt. A low dose will help your fishes' blood carry oxygen more effectively in the presence of nitrite but you also need to increase gas exchange as well.
If you clean your filters, be sure that you are rising any biological filter media in some tank water (that you have removed and then discard) versus rinsing it in tap water. A large water chemistry change will harm them as well and I assume you want to keep them.
The last thing you want to do is give up. Your fish do have a strong ability to fight off most ailments on their own if they are healthy enough so your #1 priority should be to ensure that your currently living and apparently healthy fish stay that way.
Again, I mean no offense to anyone and I realize that it is always easy to go running to a store shelf when we notice problems within our fish....but those products are usually for advanced problems and are of no help if we don't have the basics covered first; starting with water chemistry.
He has posted stats and nitrate 0 which I agree is rare, but you can have a nitrate of 0 if the tap water is 0 and live plants.
Would of expected the fish to be showing some signs if water quality was bad, like flicking and rubbing, being pale.
Test your water again and post readings please, or take a sample of your tank water to the lfs to be tested, and ask them to write the readings down for you.
Would of expected the fish to be showing some signs if water quality was bad, like flicking and rubbing, being pale.
Test your water again and post readings please, or take a sample of your tank water to the lfs to be tested, and ask them to write the readings down for you.
dusky
Fishaholic
I too lost a whole tankful of various fish. All died with in a week. Stats were fine, no sign of any abnormalities. BUT i notice the link between your and mine,, i had bought 2 molleys from lfs. One of which died within 2 days. All i can assume is the new fish have brought something in with them. I eventualy had to put the other Molly to sleep as it had such bad white spot. Everytime i stopped treatment it came back. But it had been skitty from the begining so i think it came with it. I guess the moral is to always quaranteen new fishes.
dusky
Fishaholic
Yes I agree with you about having the room. I got a little hexaganal one from asda which hardly takes up any room and i keep that as a hospital tank. Pets at home are also doing a small one,, about 12 " long which ideal for quaranteen of a few small fish or as a hospital tank.
Tommy Gun
Fish Crazy
All valid points and like I said Wilder, I respect what you do for everyone here and I meant no offense to anyone....I was just trying to make the point that a lot of things other than disease play a role in our fishes' lives. For example...
Many times these sorts of deaths are due to osmotic shock and nothing more. Even if you have two tanks that use the same water source and you take a fish from one and plop it into another, there is a chance for osmotic shock because of variable such as DOC (dissolved organic compounds) being different, the amount of trace elements (including salts and other electrolytes) being different....and definitely large changes in some of the things we do test for like pH, Gh, and Kh can also play a role. Point being - there is much more to water than what we purchase in a "master test kit" so there is a need to acclimate fish ---- they can certainly handle it, especially mollies as far as some of the experts on this forum have stated.
And in reality, this has nothing to do with the fish directly - Ich is a parasite that we cannot always see so yea, even if all of your fish died one day from Ich (white spot), and you brought 10 new fish home...all from different stores...then you could very well see it again, and again, and again, and again. This is why you really need to continue treatment of Ich for weeks - some would say a month or more - in order to have a higher chance of avoiding it. Why do some fish get it and others don't? Because all fish have a very strong ability to fight ich off via their stress coat (a.k.a. slime coat).....which is why it is so commonly seen in fish that we just brought home.....it is stressful for the fish to be transported home, many of us don't take the time to acclimate at all (other than water temp), so our fish are dealing with a lot in a very short time, and in a very closed system which gives the tiny ich protozoa a much easier time of finding a host. If you have an Ich problem in the future, I strongly suggest researching the life cycle of this parasite because once you know the enemy, I can almost guarantee that you won't be putting any fish to sleep because of it. (water temp is a HUGE help in Ich treatment....even when you are using meds. You cannot harm the white spots with any medication that will not also kill your fish, so you have to wait for them to fall off. Higher temp = Ich falls off faster)
Very true....but if there is an ammonia source in the water, then nitrates are sure to follow so starting with 0 nitrates really means nothing. And if there are live plants in the tank, then I adding medications isn't always that wise as far as I understand it (plants = less oxygen/meds = less oxygen...if for no other reason) - and there are still a myriad of things to look at first - like the oxygen content of the water, especially at night.
My only interest in this thread is based upon another from this same member who basically stated that he/she refuses to use fishless cycling - so putting yet another batch of fish in jeopardy - because the tank in question here is having so many problems and he/she couldn't even clone the new tank. In fact, it was suggested to fix this tank before starting another but it sounds like this member wasn't even interested in that....so I thought I could help. In short, I am miffed at how we feel it is ok to give up on a fish, letting it alone to complete what could be a harsh death but if this was a dog, cat, bird, etc.... we would be down at the vet's office who would probably explore other options before throwing some antibiotics across the counter.
I apologize again if I am offending anyone as this is not my intention and I am sure I lack all of the political correctness I could be using here....but saying nothing wouldn't be of any help.
Many times these sorts of deaths are due to osmotic shock and nothing more. Even if you have two tanks that use the same water source and you take a fish from one and plop it into another, there is a chance for osmotic shock because of variable such as DOC (dissolved organic compounds) being different, the amount of trace elements (including salts and other electrolytes) being different....and definitely large changes in some of the things we do test for like pH, Gh, and Kh can also play a role. Point being - there is much more to water than what we purchase in a "master test kit" so there is a need to acclimate fish ---- they can certainly handle it, especially mollies as far as some of the experts on this forum have stated.
And in reality, this has nothing to do with the fish directly - Ich is a parasite that we cannot always see so yea, even if all of your fish died one day from Ich (white spot), and you brought 10 new fish home...all from different stores...then you could very well see it again, and again, and again, and again. This is why you really need to continue treatment of Ich for weeks - some would say a month or more - in order to have a higher chance of avoiding it. Why do some fish get it and others don't? Because all fish have a very strong ability to fight ich off via their stress coat (a.k.a. slime coat).....which is why it is so commonly seen in fish that we just brought home.....it is stressful for the fish to be transported home, many of us don't take the time to acclimate at all (other than water temp), so our fish are dealing with a lot in a very short time, and in a very closed system which gives the tiny ich protozoa a much easier time of finding a host. If you have an Ich problem in the future, I strongly suggest researching the life cycle of this parasite because once you know the enemy, I can almost guarantee that you won't be putting any fish to sleep because of it. (water temp is a HUGE help in Ich treatment....even when you are using meds. You cannot harm the white spots with any medication that will not also kill your fish, so you have to wait for them to fall off. Higher temp = Ich falls off faster)
Very true....but if there is an ammonia source in the water, then nitrates are sure to follow so starting with 0 nitrates really means nothing. And if there are live plants in the tank, then I adding medications isn't always that wise as far as I understand it (plants = less oxygen/meds = less oxygen...if for no other reason) - and there are still a myriad of things to look at first - like the oxygen content of the water, especially at night.
My only interest in this thread is based upon another from this same member who basically stated that he/she refuses to use fishless cycling - so putting yet another batch of fish in jeopardy - because the tank in question here is having so many problems and he/she couldn't even clone the new tank. In fact, it was suggested to fix this tank before starting another but it sounds like this member wasn't even interested in that....so I thought I could help. In short, I am miffed at how we feel it is ok to give up on a fish, letting it alone to complete what could be a harsh death but if this was a dog, cat, bird, etc.... we would be down at the vet's office who would probably explore other options before throwing some antibiotics across the counter.
I apologize again if I am offending anyone as this is not my intention and I am sure I lack all of the political correctness I could be using here....but saying nothing wouldn't be of any help.
dusky
Fishaholic
Hi Tommy,, I actualy treated for over about 3 months. Water temp was put up high to. But as soon as the end of the week came and meds had worn off the white spot came back ferosciously. Also it was 'tatty' once meds had gone. I probaly spent about £15 on different types of medications for a £2 fish lol. Did try my best with it honest
Thanks for all your very valid points. Yes i really am testing and have done so aswel this morning. I am using an API freshwater master test kit. When i tested this morning it came up with the same results. The nitrate being borderline 0ppm-10ppm, i have also tested my tap water and there is no Nitrate present in that. When i took a sample to be tested at my lfs they found no nitrate at all.
Yesterday i noticed one of my dwarf gouramis hanging around in one corner not really doing much. Now this morning he is still alive but it looks as though he either has some sort of growth or some of his scales are missing on top of his head and around his mouth. Does this indicate any other illness?
I cycled my old tank with some platys (I didn't know about fishless at the time) and then when i bought my new tank i just transfered all the filter media. I didn't notie any rise in ammonia or nitrites when i did this so i guess my tank is properly cycled.
Oxygen should be fine in the water i have 2 air stones and i have my 2 external filter outlets breaking the surface and no it isnt a planted tank.
Cheers for all your help!
Yesterday i noticed one of my dwarf gouramis hanging around in one corner not really doing much. Now this morning he is still alive but it looks as though he either has some sort of growth or some of his scales are missing on top of his head and around his mouth. Does this indicate any other illness?
I cycled my old tank with some platys (I didn't know about fishless at the time) and then when i bought my new tank i just transfered all the filter media. I didn't notie any rise in ammonia or nitrites when i did this so i guess my tank is properly cycled.
Oxygen should be fine in the water i have 2 air stones and i have my 2 external filter outlets breaking the surface and no it isnt a planted tank.
Cheers for all your help!
Tommy Gun
Fish Crazy
Please don't misunderstand me....I wasn't really trying to say that you did anything wrong or were just throwing fish down a toilet. I understand that most of us do our very best with the knowledge we have at the time and I have lost many fish to ich as well. It isn't an easy thing to over come, but once you do, prevention becomes the key to success.
IMHO, I do not believe in using a lot of meds (obviously) and think they should be a last resort. I realize that it is not very good advice from a business stand point (i.e. manufacturers and/or LFS), but adding salt to an aquarium creates a pretty harsh osmotic problem for ich protozoa....and the increased water temp simply creates a more ideal environment for the Ich when it is a white spot so that it falls off and reproduces faster; which, in its free-swimming stage, is the best, and by many accounts, only time it can be treated effectively. The other half of that though is getting all of the fish healthy enough to fight it on their own. If the problem was that big of a deal, then we would be going to a Friday night Ich fry, not a Friday night fish fry.
I have the same test kit....but just to make sure - you are using the tests that use a test tube and some drops of other chemicals, right? Are you 100% sure that you are adding the right amount of drops? (some have a couple different bottles of drops to add, right? I can't remember off-hand)
And you have no plants in this tank?
When is the last time you did a water change?
Do you have any clams in the tank? Any filter feeder?
What filter media are you using in your filters? (having a lot of filtration isn't going to mean you never have any nitrates)
What substrate are you using? How deep is it?
When is the last time you cleaned or serviced your filters? (it is possible for anaerobic bacteria to accumulate in both substrate and filters.....which can result in some nasty chemicals being produced. Usually this isn't a huge problem for most of us, but it is possible)
Are you using any products in the tank?
What do you do to remove chlorine/chloramines (if you have to)?
Are you using filtered water?
What is the pH of the water in your tank?
What is the pH of the water before you put it in the tank?
Common ailments such as hole in the head and/or lateral line erosion (which has similar symptoms) can be caused by something as simple as diet - usually a lack of Vitamin C, I believe. Poor water quality can also cause this.
What other fish do you have in this tank? Gouramis are pretty well known for that whole 'kissing' habit, which is really fighting (haven't kept any myself, so I am probably not the best to ask about their aggression per say)
Have you noticed any other aggression issues - any at all (chasing, flashing)? That might also explain why it is hanging around in one corner (that I have witnessed A LOT being a big fan of cichlid/dither tanks)
Just so we are all on the same page....the tank you upgraded to is the one with the problems, right? (not the possible dwarf puffer tank???)
How long ago did you make this upgrade?
When you made the transfer, did you also transfer any of the water? (it is possible to kill off bacteria via osmotic shock as well...albeit probably pretty hard to do without trying)
Did you clean the substrate when you made the change over? If so, how?
==============
What are you feeding your fish?
What are you feeding your plecos? Are you feeding your plecos? (many plecos will resort to sucking the slime coat off tank mates if it is not getting enough to eat - could account for the injuries and maybe why your gourami is sticking to the upper areas of the tank....if that is the case).
Ok - no plants really tells a lot then.
Is this a square tank, long tank, bowfront tank? (How deep is the tank from the top to the bottom?)
Do you have any water movement other than from the filters and the airstones?
*FYI - it is NOT the bubbles from the airstones that adds oxygen...if it was, they would get much smaller as they rose to the top...but it is the movement they make on the surface that helps. So, if you have a lot of surface movement already, you don't really need them....unless you like the look; which is fine; I do as well. If you have no water movement under the surface, perhaps that might help a little bit.
Can you explain what your tactics are as far as maintenance....in detail?
How often do you monitor pH, Gh, and Kh? (could they be changing frequently or rapidly?)
Have you ever observed your fish at night....maybe four or five hours after the lights go out?
---------------------
Other than the deaths and the injuries on your gourami....I don't know what ailment could really account for what is going on. There are no outward signs of a problem, right (gourami aside)?
Are you using any meds already? If so, what?
Not seeing a spike in ammonia or nitrite is possible if you cloned your tank like you said....in fact, I guess it can't really be called cloning, just moving. You saw all of that in the origonal tank though right? How long was that tank up and running?
You didn't just add a large amount of fish?
Like I said, I have the API master test kit (both the FW and SW versions) and I am 99% sure that they do not always pick up the actual amount of ammonia AND ammonium unless you use that chart on the pH test in conjunction with the ammonia test kit....and unfortunately I don't know how to read that exactly because I am a big cichlid and salty guy at the moment. If you pH is under 7.0 then you might need to figure that out.
I am sure there are thousands of people on this forum who can help you much better than I can...but hopefully something I have mentioned with cause a spark that leads to a solution. When I first started in this hobby, this forum was of great help to me....but I started by getting a whole sack of misinformation and a lot of fish suffered. Point being....no problem is not without cause and no cause is unavoidable.
My replys are in red after your questions, Cheers
-----------------
I have the same test kit....but just to make sure - you are using the tests that use a test tube and some drops of other chemicals, right? Are you 100% sure that you are adding the right amount of drops? (some have a couple different bottles of drops to add, right? I can't remember off-hand) Yes it a liquid test kit with test tubes
And you have no plants in this tank? None
When is the last time you did a water change? I did one a few days ago and have just done one now
Do you have any clams in the tank? Any filter feeder? None
What filter media are you using in your filters? (having a lot of filtration isn't going to mean you never have any nitrates) I have a few sponges, some filter wool and some bio bead type things
What substrate are you using? How deep is it? Small Gravel, Approx 2"
When is the last time you cleaned or serviced your filters? (it is possible for anaerobic bacteria to accumulate in both substrate and filters.....which can result in some nasty chemicals being produced. Usually this isn't a huge problem for most of us, but it is possible) I have just cleaned it now, other than that have not done it before
Are you using any products in the tank? None
What do you do to remove chlorine/chloramines (if you have to)? Tetra Aquasafe
Are you using filtered water? Normal tap water
What is the pH of the water in your tank? 8.0
What is the pH of the water before you put it in the tank? 8.0
Common ailments such as hole in the head and/or lateral line erosion (which has similar symptoms) can be caused by something as simple as diet - usually a lack of Vitamin C, I believe. Poor water quality can also cause this.
What other fish do you have in this tank? Gouramis are pretty well known for that whole 'kissing' habit, which is really fighting (haven't kept any myself, so I am probably not the best to ask about their aggression per say) Check my sig (although a couple hve died)
Have you noticed any other aggression issues - any at all (chasing, flashing)? That might also explain why it is hanging around in one corner (that I have witnessed A LOT being a big fan of cichlid/dither tanks) No known aggression
Just so we are all on the same page....the tank you upgraded to is the one with the problems, right? (not the possible dwarf puffer tank???) Yes its my upgraded one, I have put hold on my puffer tank until this ones sorted
How long ago did you make this upgrade? About 2 months ago
When you made the transfer, did you also transfer any of the water? (it is possible to kill off bacteria via osmotic shock as well...albeit probably pretty hard to do without trying)
No water was transfered
Did you clean the substrate when you made the change over? If so, how? I used new substrate, I just ran it under tap water until the water ran clear
What are you feeding your fish? A mixture of Tertra prima and aquarian flakes
What are you feeding your plecos? Are you feeding your plecos? (many plecos will resort to sucking the slime coat off tank mates if it is not getting enough to eat - could account for the injuries and maybe why your gourami is sticking to the upper areas of the tank....if that is the case). I have tried a few pieces of cucumber but they don't seem to touch it
Ok - no plants really tells a lot then.
Is this a square tank, long tank, bowfront tank? (How deep is the tank from the top to the bottom?) It's 4'x18"x24"
Do you have any water movement other than from the filters and the airstones?
*FYI - it is NOT the bubbles from the airstones that adds oxygen...if it was, they would get much smaller as they rose to the top...but it is the movement they make on the surface that helps. So, if you have a lot of surface movement already, you don't really need them....unless you like the look; which is fine; I do as well. If you have no water movement under the surface, perhaps that might help a little bit. No None but the surface moves quite a bit
Can you explain what your tactics are as far as maintenance....in detail? Weekly 25% water chnges, checking the water with my test kit every 3 or 4 days, Scraping the front glass once a week, vacing the gravel when doing water changes. Have just cleaned my filter aswel
How often do you monitor pH, Gh, and Kh? (could they be changing frequently or rapidly?) Ph is tested every 3 or 4 days with everything else, Have never tested Kh or Gh. Havn't got anything with my kit to do this?
Have you ever observed your fish at night....maybe four or five hours after the lights go out? I work nights so sometimes check when i come in and don't notice anything different
---------------------
Other than the deaths and the injuries on your gourami....I don't know what ailment could really account for what is going on. There are no outward signs of a problem, right (gourami aside)?
Are you using any meds already? If so, what? I have just bought some Interpet Liquisil General tonic which i am going to add but havn't used anything yet.
Not seeing a spike in ammonia or nitrite is possible if you cloned your tank like you said....in fact, I guess it can't really be called cloning, just moving. You saw all of that in the origonal tank though right? How long was that tank up and running? Yes i got the spike or ammonia then the spike of nitrites then they both dropped off. It was running for approx 2 months also
You didn't just add a large amount of fish? I usually add about 3 or 4 fish at a time
Like I said, I have the API master test kit (both the FW and SW versions) and I am 99% sure that they do not always pick up the actual amount of ammonia AND ammonium unless you use that chart on the pH test in conjunction with the ammonia test kit....and unfortunately I don't know how to read that exactly because I am a big cichlid and salty guy at the moment. If you pH is under 7.0 then you might need to figure that out.
I am sure there are thousands of people on this forum who can help you much better than I can...but hopefully something I have mentioned with cause a spark that leads to a solution. When I first started in this hobby, this forum was of great help to me....but I started by getting a whole sack of misinformation and a lot of fish suffered. Point being....no problem is not without cause and no cause is unavoidable.
---------
As said before i appreciate everyones help in this matter. Its things like this that make you just want to give up (i wont thought don't worry)
-----------------
I have the same test kit....but just to make sure - you are using the tests that use a test tube and some drops of other chemicals, right? Are you 100% sure that you are adding the right amount of drops? (some have a couple different bottles of drops to add, right? I can't remember off-hand) Yes it a liquid test kit with test tubes
And you have no plants in this tank? None
When is the last time you did a water change? I did one a few days ago and have just done one now
Do you have any clams in the tank? Any filter feeder? None
What filter media are you using in your filters? (having a lot of filtration isn't going to mean you never have any nitrates) I have a few sponges, some filter wool and some bio bead type things
What substrate are you using? How deep is it? Small Gravel, Approx 2"
When is the last time you cleaned or serviced your filters? (it is possible for anaerobic bacteria to accumulate in both substrate and filters.....which can result in some nasty chemicals being produced. Usually this isn't a huge problem for most of us, but it is possible) I have just cleaned it now, other than that have not done it before
Are you using any products in the tank? None
What do you do to remove chlorine/chloramines (if you have to)? Tetra Aquasafe
Are you using filtered water? Normal tap water
What is the pH of the water in your tank? 8.0
What is the pH of the water before you put it in the tank? 8.0
Common ailments such as hole in the head and/or lateral line erosion (which has similar symptoms) can be caused by something as simple as diet - usually a lack of Vitamin C, I believe. Poor water quality can also cause this.
What other fish do you have in this tank? Gouramis are pretty well known for that whole 'kissing' habit, which is really fighting (haven't kept any myself, so I am probably not the best to ask about their aggression per say) Check my sig (although a couple hve died)
Have you noticed any other aggression issues - any at all (chasing, flashing)? That might also explain why it is hanging around in one corner (that I have witnessed A LOT being a big fan of cichlid/dither tanks) No known aggression
Just so we are all on the same page....the tank you upgraded to is the one with the problems, right? (not the possible dwarf puffer tank???) Yes its my upgraded one, I have put hold on my puffer tank until this ones sorted
How long ago did you make this upgrade? About 2 months ago
When you made the transfer, did you also transfer any of the water? (it is possible to kill off bacteria via osmotic shock as well...albeit probably pretty hard to do without trying)
No water was transfered
Did you clean the substrate when you made the change over? If so, how? I used new substrate, I just ran it under tap water until the water ran clear
What are you feeding your fish? A mixture of Tertra prima and aquarian flakes
What are you feeding your plecos? Are you feeding your plecos? (many plecos will resort to sucking the slime coat off tank mates if it is not getting enough to eat - could account for the injuries and maybe why your gourami is sticking to the upper areas of the tank....if that is the case). I have tried a few pieces of cucumber but they don't seem to touch it
Ok - no plants really tells a lot then.
Is this a square tank, long tank, bowfront tank? (How deep is the tank from the top to the bottom?) It's 4'x18"x24"
Do you have any water movement other than from the filters and the airstones?
*FYI - it is NOT the bubbles from the airstones that adds oxygen...if it was, they would get much smaller as they rose to the top...but it is the movement they make on the surface that helps. So, if you have a lot of surface movement already, you don't really need them....unless you like the look; which is fine; I do as well. If you have no water movement under the surface, perhaps that might help a little bit. No None but the surface moves quite a bit
Can you explain what your tactics are as far as maintenance....in detail? Weekly 25% water chnges, checking the water with my test kit every 3 or 4 days, Scraping the front glass once a week, vacing the gravel when doing water changes. Have just cleaned my filter aswel
How often do you monitor pH, Gh, and Kh? (could they be changing frequently or rapidly?) Ph is tested every 3 or 4 days with everything else, Have never tested Kh or Gh. Havn't got anything with my kit to do this?
Have you ever observed your fish at night....maybe four or five hours after the lights go out? I work nights so sometimes check when i come in and don't notice anything different
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Other than the deaths and the injuries on your gourami....I don't know what ailment could really account for what is going on. There are no outward signs of a problem, right (gourami aside)?
Are you using any meds already? If so, what? I have just bought some Interpet Liquisil General tonic which i am going to add but havn't used anything yet.
Not seeing a spike in ammonia or nitrite is possible if you cloned your tank like you said....in fact, I guess it can't really be called cloning, just moving. You saw all of that in the origonal tank though right? How long was that tank up and running? Yes i got the spike or ammonia then the spike of nitrites then they both dropped off. It was running for approx 2 months also
You didn't just add a large amount of fish? I usually add about 3 or 4 fish at a time
Like I said, I have the API master test kit (both the FW and SW versions) and I am 99% sure that they do not always pick up the actual amount of ammonia AND ammonium unless you use that chart on the pH test in conjunction with the ammonia test kit....and unfortunately I don't know how to read that exactly because I am a big cichlid and salty guy at the moment. If you pH is under 7.0 then you might need to figure that out.
I am sure there are thousands of people on this forum who can help you much better than I can...but hopefully something I have mentioned with cause a spark that leads to a solution. When I first started in this hobby, this forum was of great help to me....but I started by getting a whole sack of misinformation and a lot of fish suffered. Point being....no problem is not without cause and no cause is unavoidable.
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As said before i appreciate everyones help in this matter. Its things like this that make you just want to give up (i wont thought don't worry)
I agree sometimes its hard to be on the ball all the time, but I should of looked into the nitrate reading more.
Its good to get questioned it how you learn, but i'm not a great writer and find it hard to put on paper what I mean.
Scales missing can mean that the fish has knocked them off on something in the tank or fighting.
Also can be parasites.
Can you get a magifying glass and look to see if you can see any parasites under the scales.
Any signs of the fish flicking and rubbing, or hanging about at the top of the tank as though there finding it hard to breath.
Get you some info on scale loss.
The mouth does it look bleached out or fluffy in appearance.
On the head you can get columnaris spot which will look like a greyish colour with a tinging of red on the outside of it.
Its good to get questioned it how you learn, but i'm not a great writer and find it hard to put on paper what I mean.
Scales missing can mean that the fish has knocked them off on something in the tank or fighting.
Also can be parasites.
Can you get a magifying glass and look to see if you can see any parasites under the scales.
Any signs of the fish flicking and rubbing, or hanging about at the top of the tank as though there finding it hard to breath.
Get you some info on scale loss.
The mouth does it look bleached out or fluffy in appearance.
On the head you can get columnaris spot which will look like a greyish colour with a tinging of red on the outside of it.
Tommy Gun
Fish Crazy
Thanks for the information. Here is what I noticed....
Aquasafe, like most chloramine products, is going to reduce or remove ammonia from your water by making ammonium (NH4) which many test kits do not detect, or like I mentioned, you have to use the chart on the pH test kit to figure out how much cummulative ammonia/ammonium you have. (ammonia is NH3 and ammonium is NH4 - meaning there is one hydrogen ion being added....pH is potential hydrogen...and I am not sure of the rest because I never deal with that in my tanks)
The problem with sponges...just like a live sponge....is that the pores or passages in them can become blocked very easily (a live sponge can die from being exposed to air becuase it blocks food from entering it). In a filter, this usually happens with detritus blocking the pores and when no water can pass through those areas, anaerobic bacteria can form. To make a long story short, anaerobic bacteria generate byproducts with are very toxic to fish...and even us (hydrogen sulfide is one I believe...but I will verify in a minute). This actually completes the nitrogen cycle, but might be one of your issues and could account for the odd behavior of your fish before death. (keywords: could.....these are only possiblities). So with that in mind....
....you really should be making sure that your filters are free of detritus and probably should replace the filter wool (filter floss?) frequently....at a minimum, with every other water change (perhaps cleaning one of your filters each time). Cleaning your filter will NOT un-cycle your aquarium. There is plenty of benificial bacteria located in/on other areas of a well established tank (e.g. substrate, decorations, live or fake plants) so you should be ok. However, you probably don't want to press your luck so fill a bucket with some water from your tank and rinse the sponges out in that...then discard that water. You might need to do that with the biobead type things as well. Any organic based detritus that is still in your tank or in the water moving in and out of your tank is still playing a role in your tank and usually a negative one.
Likewise, gravel is notorious for trapping detritus and really needs to be cleaned well. If you are paranoid, clean half of it with each water change...however, the reality is that any benificial bacteria on the gravel is pretty well protected and attached to it - meaning you aren't going to vacuum it all of very easily.
Interesting....ammonia and nitrites are more toxic at higher a higher pH. I have to search for the link again, but I know that your aquasafe product can still create ammonium in any pH.
Are you using the high range pH test or low range pH test? If you use the low range pH, it is showing a very strong reading of the highest number?
Try this....take a cup of tap water and put a few drops of aquasafe in it. Then test for pH right away and then again in an hour to see if the pH changes.
Do you know the Kh of your tap water?
Is one of your platies larger than the rest?
Aquasafe, like most chloramine products, is going to reduce or remove ammonia from your water by making ammonium (NH4) which many test kits do not detect, or like I mentioned, you have to use the chart on the pH test kit to figure out how much cummulative ammonia/ammonium you have. (ammonia is NH3 and ammonium is NH4 - meaning there is one hydrogen ion being added....pH is potential hydrogen...and I am not sure of the rest because I never deal with that in my tanks)
The problem with sponges...just like a live sponge....is that the pores or passages in them can become blocked very easily (a live sponge can die from being exposed to air becuase it blocks food from entering it). In a filter, this usually happens with detritus blocking the pores and when no water can pass through those areas, anaerobic bacteria can form. To make a long story short, anaerobic bacteria generate byproducts with are very toxic to fish...and even us (hydrogen sulfide is one I believe...but I will verify in a minute). This actually completes the nitrogen cycle, but might be one of your issues and could account for the odd behavior of your fish before death. (keywords: could.....these are only possiblities). So with that in mind....
....you really should be making sure that your filters are free of detritus and probably should replace the filter wool (filter floss?) frequently....at a minimum, with every other water change (perhaps cleaning one of your filters each time). Cleaning your filter will NOT un-cycle your aquarium. There is plenty of benificial bacteria located in/on other areas of a well established tank (e.g. substrate, decorations, live or fake plants) so you should be ok. However, you probably don't want to press your luck so fill a bucket with some water from your tank and rinse the sponges out in that...then discard that water. You might need to do that with the biobead type things as well. Any organic based detritus that is still in your tank or in the water moving in and out of your tank is still playing a role in your tank and usually a negative one.
Likewise, gravel is notorious for trapping detritus and really needs to be cleaned well. If you are paranoid, clean half of it with each water change...however, the reality is that any benificial bacteria on the gravel is pretty well protected and attached to it - meaning you aren't going to vacuum it all of very easily.
Interesting....ammonia and nitrites are more toxic at higher a higher pH. I have to search for the link again, but I know that your aquasafe product can still create ammonium in any pH.
Are you using the high range pH test or low range pH test? If you use the low range pH, it is showing a very strong reading of the highest number?
Try this....take a cup of tap water and put a few drops of aquasafe in it. Then test for pH right away and then again in an hour to see if the pH changes.
Do you know the Kh of your tap water?
Is one of your platies larger than the rest?
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